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Constructing Accessible Web Sites

Posted by timothy on Tue Oct 15, 2002 09:00 AM
from the conclusions-to-leap-to dept.
actiondan writes: "Constructing Accessible Web Sites is about how to build websites that can be used by people who rely on assistive technologies to browse the web. When I picked up this book, accessibility was an area that interested me but I am now convinced that it should be in the thoughts of every web developer. Some of the laws that are emerging to regulate accessibility look positively scary and there are lots of other good reasons to take accessibility seriously." Read on for the rest of his review.
Constructing Accessible Web Sites
author Jim Thatcher, Paul Bohman, Michael Burks, Shawn Lawton Henry, Bob Regan, Sarah Swierenga, Mark D. Urban, Cynthia D. Waddell
pages 415
publisher Glasshaus
rating 8
reviewer actiondan
ISBN 1904151000
summary The whys and hows of making web sites accessible to all.

What does the book cover?

Chapter 1 is an introduction to web accessibility. I would guess that most people who pick up this book will already know at least a little bit about accessibility, but this chapter provides a good overview and presents some compelling arguments for providing accessible websites. Interestingly, none of these is based on a moral argument -- they are all sound reasons why it is in the interests of an organization to think about accessibility. For example, one of these sections mentions that people with disabilities in the U.S. are estimated to control a discretionary income of over $175 billion. Making a site accessible to these people gives it access to an additional market that non-accessible sites cannot tap.

This first chapter sets the tone for the whole book. It doesn't preach about accessibility for the sake of people with disabilities but rather seeks to convince the reader that accessibility is in their interests.

Chapter 2 concentrates on one of the major reasons for making web sites accessible - laws that compel us to do so. It presents an overview of the state of the law in different parts of the world and a couple of examples of cases involving web usability. I have to admit I skimmed this chapter, as I wanted to get on to the technical stuff.

In Chapter 3, the book gets on to the mechanics of accessibility -- assistive technologies. It provides a short survey of the screen readers and other technologies that are available. I would have liked to have seen more information here on how widespread these systems are, even if just approximate.

Chapter 4 is where the book starts talking about the actual work involved in creating accessible content. It runs down the basics of accessibility (most of it is good practice such as using ALT text and so on). The blink tag even gets a mention and a "good for them!" is given to Opera for not supporting it :) This chapter will not be news to anyone who has done any accessibility work (or even just best-practices web development). The information on how tables are handled by screen readers is good though.

Chapter 5 looks in more detail at navigation. The advice here is good even outside of an accessibility context and there are some good points about 'gotchas' that could make sites difficult to navigate with assistive technologies.

In Chapter 6, input gets the same treatment that navigation got in the last chapter. I wasn't sure about the stuff on PDF forms (does anyone actually use these for web input?) but the advice on HTML forms was great.

Chapter 7 is about testing for section 508 (of the U.S. Rehabilitation Act) compliance. Initially, this was another chapter that I skimmed, as I am not based in the U.S., but then I realised that the testing advice in this chapter is not just useful for section 508 compliance -- it is useful for general accessibility testing.

Chapter 8 studies the accessibility of web development tools themselves. This doesn't apply to me but it was interesting to see how the tools (Dreamweaver, Frontpage, GoLive, Homesite and BBEdit) compare in terms of usability. This would have been a lot easier if there had been a summary table of the ratings given to the applications.

Chapter 9 seemed a little out of place. It is on "Separating Style from Presentation" and basically looks at CSS. I'm sure most people picking up this book will, like me, not need to be taught CSS basics. I skipped the chapter and very nearly missed an interesting little section on aural stylesheets.

I was surprised that chapter 10 was devoted to Flash, as I expected that Flash coverage in an accessibility book would be limited to a few paragraphs lambasting Macromedia for creating such an inaccessible technology. Well, it turns out that the new version of Flash supports accessibility much better than previous ones. This chapter was a real eye-opener for me. Clearly there is more work to be done but well done to Macromedia for putting accessibility support in!

Chapter 11 didn't really interest me much -- it seems to be more aimed at people who need to implement an accessibility strategy, one to hand over to managers once the technical content of the book is digested.

Chapter 12 is a bit of a heads-up on newer technologies and how they affect accessibility. There is some brief but decent discussion of how technologies such as SVG support accessibility.

The last actual chapter, Chapter 13, is a more in-depth look at U.S. web accessibility law. This was another one that I skimmed but one section did catch my eye. There is a discussion that raises the scary idea that web developers may be held liable for inaccessible web sites, even if their client told them to ignore the issue. If this is true, then it is an important point for every web developer to consider -- could you be held liable?

There are three appendices in the book; a quick reference guide summarises the most important advice given in the book, a glossary of terms and an appendix that details the U.S. Section 508 legislation.

Conclusion

Apart from the basic CSS coverage and the more U.S.-specific sections, I found the vast majority of the information in the book to be very interesting to me. The style was good too -- I was surprised that a book with 8 authors manages to maintain such a consistent and readable tone throughout.

Overall, I found the book a much more interesting read than I was expecting it to be. It gives specific advice about the way web sites should be constructed with accessibility in mind and offers strong arguments for following the advice.

It seems that accessibility is going to be a fact of life in web development. That being the case, every web developer needs to learn at least something about it, if only to use as ammunition in interviews. I would definitely recommend Constructing Accessible Websites as a good source of information on the area.


You can purchase Constructing Accessible Web Sites from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

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  • Lemme guess... by Pig Hogger (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:05AM
    • Re:Lemme guess... by macdaddy (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:08AM
    • Re:Lemme guess... (Score:4, Interesting)

      by nogoodmonkey (614350) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:13AM (#4453069)
      I know it won't happen, but I hope that all web developers stop using Flash. It is the worst idea ever thought of (next to Netobjects Fusion) for the mere fact that you can't go back or forward in the webbrowser.

      Truthfully, I am surprised that Macromedia hasn't had a lawsuit filed directly against them for Flash files not being parsable by accessability readers. But then again, its all the web developers fault! :-)
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Lemme guess... (Score:5, Insightful)

      by dnoyeb (547705) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:31AM (#4453187) Homepage Journal
      Why should a book have more authority than the US Government? Accessiblility has been LAW for some time now. Just because you ignore it does not mean its legal to do so.

      My mother is legally blind and I help her with windows usage often. Frames can be done if the Author is concious of what he/she is doing. But trash such as right clicking to save a page and the page not saving because its appearing through some deep linkage garbage is terrible. Screen readers can not dig through all that garbage.

      The days when we all use HTML editors to do our websites were much kinder. Now that we use non-html tools, the generated code is quite a mess but no one cares. YOu used to be able to even read a web page through telnet. You can forget it now.

      Hes right on all the flash TV Wannabe jibberish. But you can always have 2 sites. In stead of frames / non-frames, go Standard, or accessible. An accessible site can be BLAND and just a list of links and pages such as generated by TUX> or whatever that linux html generator thingy is.

      Glad to see this. M$ has been bullsitting on Accessibility for ages. Though they are far ahead of Linux.
      [ Parent ]
      • The LAW (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Andy Social (19242) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:54AM (#4453337) Homepage
        The law doesn't apply to private sites. There is a section of the Americans with Disabilities Act, Section 508, that addresses web accessibility. Section 508 applies to any site that receives government funding.

        However, there is a reasonable expectation that web sites won't exclude a subset of customers. This is not being addressed through any criminal process, but through various civil cases brought against individual sites. One of the most famous, of course, was the Olympic site debacle, for two iterations of the Games. After the 2000 games site was sued for not having such basics as alt-tags or a text-based menu, the 2002 games committed the same mistakes. It's just good web design to allow your code to gracefully degrade, rather than break in anything but the newest and most-overloaded browser.

        I know a bit about Section 508 because I've had to do web design for DoD the past several years. Many other DoD sites, I've noticed, claim compliance while using a Flash-based menu or Java applets for buttons. Clueless.
        [ Parent ]
        • Re:The LAW by Andy Social (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:56AM
        • Re:The LAW by Andy Social (Score:1) Friday October 25 2002, @02:35PM
        • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Lemme guess... by dpt (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:43AM
    • Re:Lemme guess... by Pig Hogger (Score:3) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:21AM
  • Finally getting attention! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mong (64682) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:07AM (#4453023) Homepage
    This is a book I think I'll be ordering as soon as my next personal budget is approved. In fact, I think the boss will order it anyway.

    We take this so seriously that we've now hired a blind guy, to ensure that all of our sites are accesible. It's quite amazing what I'd discovered within a month of working alongside him! I've been developing/designing for years now, and thought I was pretty good at alting my tags and commenting my forms... But he's really opened my eyes to how a few simple and quick practices can be adopted to make a BIG difference.

    So I recommend books of this ilk (I've not read this one yet obviously). You really can't afford to ignore these matters anymore. Even if just to find out about blindness accessiblity... generally though, Nielsen is right; most sites have significant failings in these areas.

    Buy it :-)

    M.
    • Re:Finally getting attention! (Score:5, Informative)

      by mong (64682) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:10AM (#4453046) Homepage
      I forgot to mention of course that in many EU countries, certain bodies (governement, education, , vendors, larger companies et al) MUST make at least the core functionality of their sites accessible to people with sensory disabilities. I'm not sure what the exact laws are, but if you develop for any of the above, and you don't do it right, you could end up in a lot of trouble!

      Slashdot would *just* pass the basic test, I'm informed :-)

      M.
      [ Parent ]
    • by matresstester (568333) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:15AM (#4453464)
      People should also remember accessible sites are also nice and searchable sites!

      My clients come to me wondering why Google doesn't index them - their site is a mess! All those fancy Flash animations are just plain opaque to the search engines and screen readers, of course they can't navigate!
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Finally getting attention! by dubiousmike (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:20AM
    • Re:Finally getting attention! by theLOUDroom (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:32AM
  • Why buy the book... (Score:5, Informative)

    by v4mpyr (185039) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:08AM (#4453024)
    when you can check your site for these guidelines on the web here [watchfire.com]?
    • Re:Why buy the book... by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:27AM
    • Re:Why buy the book... (Score:5, Informative)

      by cheezycrust (138235) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:29AM (#4453175)
      Why read the HTML 4 specs [w3.org] when you can validate [w3.org] your page?
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Why buy the book... by v4mpyr (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:39AM
        • Re:Why buy the book... by cheezycrust (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:44AM
        • Re:Why buy the book... (Score:4, Informative)

          by BrianH (13460) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:58AM (#4453835)
          First, let me state that as an educational web software developer, accessiblility is half my job.

          The problem with tools like Bobby is that they only address half the issue, things like ALT tags, commenting, etc. What Bobby does NOT do well is address "readability" issues. While implementing CSS, using ALT Tags, formatting forms, and commenting your pages are nice, a poor layout can make the page completely unreadable to a blind user. I couldn't tell you how many pages I've seen that "passed" their Bobby checks, but were totally unuseable by screen readers because of poor table and content layouts. Instead of using Bobby, try this one on your next page: Download a copy of JAWS [freedomscientific.com] or the IBM Homepage Reader [ibm.com], put on a blindfold, and try to surf your website by ear. If you have designed your website well, you should have no problems. If the reader makes no sense, then your site is NOT accessible...whether or not Bobby likes it.
          [ Parent ]
    • Re:Why buy the book... by Isofarro (Score:3) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:14AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • crazy laws (Score:5, Interesting)

    by tmark (230091) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:08AM (#4453031)
    Some of the laws that are emerging to regulate accessibility look positively scary

    These laws are not only scary, they are crazy. If serving people with disabilities is so important, then I'll do it, because it makes financial sense for me to do so. But if these people are largely irrelevant to my target market (say, I run a website for bird-watchers or target-shooting enthusiasts - should I be obligated to put up a version readable by vision-impaired people ?), I should have the right to ignore this segment of the market - at my own peril, of course.

    If they're going to legislate me into putting in 'assistive technology' into my websites, why don't they force magazines to put out Braille versions, or make them supply audio-cassettes or CDs with the contents transcribed ? Why don't they widen airplane and car and bus seats so morbidly obese people can sit in them ?
    • Re:crazy laws (Score:4, Interesting)

      by macdaddy (38372) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:21AM (#4453126) Homepage Journal
      Or you're the DMV and you have a website dedicated to folks wanting to get their license. What about a website for people wanting to learn to fly? The ADA laws can't be applied to everyone, can it? It just doesn't make sense.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:crazy laws (Score:5, Interesting)

        by vrmlguy (120854) <samwyse@COLAgmail.com minus caffeine> on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:30AM (#4453182) Homepage Journal
        I can't speak for every state (or country!), but in Missouri, the DMV handles not just licenses, but also ID cards for people who don't want or can't get a license. So, if you're blind, over 21, and want to buy a beer, you need to deal with the DMV.

        As for learning to fly, partial deafness is a disability that's covered by the ADA. If a learning-to-fly website had a lot of sound effects, it could make the site unusable to potential pilots.

        [ Parent ]
      • Re:crazy laws by danheskett (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:01AM
    • Re:crazy laws (Score:5, Informative)

      by Masem (1171) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:26AM (#4453151)
      In general, it's very easy to create a site that is accessible from the start, and takes more work to make it inaccessible (eg, adding JS navigation).

      Adapting existing sites, on the other hand, can be troublesome. If the site was designed well from the start that certain elements are modulized, adaption to accessibity should be near trivial. However, those sites that build every page uniquely will have a much harder time of getting to the end goal of accessibility. Particularly for those sites that were build by WYSIWYG editors that do not account for accessibilty options (such as tag-soup output engines).

      But the key is here that there's two critical legal elements that will affect site accessibility in the States at least: Section 508 rules that apply to gov't sites and those that want to contract with it, and the potental requirement of accessibility to those commercial sites that may be covered by the ADA (see the recent stories on lawsuits against American and Southwest Airlines by blind users). Hobbists', non-commercial, or otherwise personal web sites have yet to be concerned for accessibility and I don't believe they ever will be, as these provide no required service to the general public.

      That's not to say that you shouldn't think about accessibility if you run that type of site. Accessibility is not only about making your site available to more people, but it's also about better web design in general; seperate presentation from content, don't treat the browser as a pixel-perfect rendering engine, and the like. A causal site design would certainly do no harm in converting an inaccessible site to one that is, and that could mean more visitors and also improving one's HTML/web page skills.

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:crazy laws by Planesdragon (Score:3) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:26AM
    • Re:crazy laws by pamar (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:28AM
    • Re:crazy laws (Score:5, Insightful)

      by henben (578800) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:36AM (#4453217)
      If they're going to legislate me into putting in 'assistive technology' into my websites, why don't they force magazines to put out Braille versions, or make them supply audio-cassettes or CDs with the contents transcribed ? Why don't they widen airplane and car and bus seats so morbidly obese people can sit in them ?

      Because for Web technology, the extra costs of making your site accessible are trivial, and have lots of additional benefits, like making it accessible to sighted people browsing from PDAs, cellphones and WebTV.

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:crazy laws by Sodium Attack (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @12:53PM
        • Re:crazy laws by henben (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @02:22PM
          • Re:crazy laws by ray-auch (Score:1) Wednesday October 16 2002, @04:12AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:crazy laws (Score:5, Interesting)

      by vrmlguy (120854) <samwyse@COLAgmail.com minus caffeine> on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:36AM (#4453219) Homepage Journal
      There are many bird-watchers who are blind. How do they do it? They listen to the birds, identifying them by their songs. If you are a small publisher, then the laws will exempt you, but all it takes is one dissatisfied customer to poison your good-will.

      Many books and magazines are available on tape. I know, my wife is a reader for college textbooks. I also recall several years ago, someone sued to get Playboy on tape. He was blind and really did "just read it for the articles".

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:crazy laws by tshak (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:31AM
      • Re:crazy laws by indiechild (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:06PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:crazy laws by dnoyeb (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:37AM
    • Re:crazy laws (Score:5, Insightful)

      by kamasutra (172848) <markos&elite,org> on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:38AM (#4453235) Homepage
      I spent seven months doing civil service for Slovenian association of blind people and it was a really eye-opening experience.

      First, and less important, bird watching and target-shooting are among hobbies of blind people. Yes, I was surprised to learn that too. Bad examples, but I know what you mean.

      Second, I do understand your point, but think about this from different perspective. There are around 7000 registered people who are either blind or visually impaired in Slovenia, which has a population of 2 million. How many would be willing to spend time and money to make sites accessible for them? I can even give you an answer to this, because lacking legislation that USA has in this regard, the answer is pretty much noone does.

      I believe it's important for society that nobody is a second class citizen. Sometimes this means that majority of us have to make some effort for that. And if sensibility of public is not enough, than it's good if there's at least legislation to push us all in the right direction.
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:crazy laws by autocracy (Score:3) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:21AM
        • Re:crazy laws by kamasutra (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:36AM
    • Only Government Sites Affected By Laws by goldspider (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:43AM
    • Re:crazy laws by MrAtoz (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:44AM
    • Re:crazy laws by tomhudson (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:15AM
    • Re:crazy laws (Score:5, Interesting)

      by pere (23710) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:16AM (#4453479)
      Making accessible websites is about a lot more than serving people with disabilities.

      Web-accessibility takes a lot of inspiration from whats called "universal design". (As opposed to "special sollutions" that tries to solve the problems for a specific group). The point of "universial design" is that you with very small means can make the world accessible to a lot more people, in different ages, with different abilities. Examples of "universal design" is wider doors, lower and bigger light switches, electrical doors, ramps, lower busses etc etc). Braille and wheelchair elevators are examples of "special sollutions" since they mainly helps those with that special disability.

      The really interesting part about "universal design" is that good designs often seems help a lot more people than originally intended. I saw a report one time (sorry, dont have exact reference) about who used wheelchair ramps. Actually just a few percent were wheelchair users. More than 95 percent were mothers with baby carriages, travellers with big suitcases, people making deliveries, roller scaters etc etc The point is: By making it accessible, you also help a lot of people that you usually does not consider diabled. THAT IS ALSO THE POINT WITH WEB-ACESSIBILITY.

      So why should you make your bird-watcher site accessible? (Even if you have the right not to do it). My answer is that you should do it without asking, because it takes you just a few minutes and because "you'll never know".

      I guess thats not the answer you are looking for, so Im going to give you some other reasons (Note that this is not a complete list. The point with accessibel design is that you plan for situations you cant predict):
      * Mobile users. A real bird watcher site should be availiable from the field. You should anticipate that some of you power users accessing the site using a Nokia 9210 Communicator, or maybe even a 3510i or maybe even a newer model. If you follow the w3c accessibily guidelines your site will be readeable. If you dont think about accessibilty, and choose to design for the most common browser, you fail to serve your customers when they really need you.
      * Search engines, robots etc. A very important part of web-accessibility is making all information availiable textual (not using only images for important information). That also ensures that the search enignes can index everything on your site.
      * Slow connections. If you have a picture heavy site, some of your users, might choose to turn off images. For instance just turning it on when they have found the image of the bird they are looking for. By making the site accessibel, you have made sure that this is possible.
      * Temporarily disabled users. One of your bird watchers might have fallen down from a tree. Spending lots and lots of time in his hospital bed surfing the web using a voice controlled system. Have you made your system generally accessibel, he will be able to do that.

      I could come up with lots of examples. The point is: You'll never know.

      Of course you should have the right to ignore this segment of the marked. Chances are however that using just a few minutes making the site accessibel will be worth it.

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:crazy laws by Giraldus (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @06:36PM
    • Re:crazy laws by jsac (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:13AM
    • Re:crazy laws by lunaboy (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:17AM
      • Re:crazy laws by Isofarro (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @01:52PM
    • Re:crazy laws by gmhowell (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:24AM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:crazy laws by rudedog (Score:3) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:30AM
    • Re:crazy laws by mill (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @12:34PM
      • Re:crazy laws by program21 (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:23PM
    • Re:crazy laws by DrewK (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @02:27PM
    • Re:crazy laws by Gumber (Score:2) Wednesday October 16 2002, @12:50PM
    • Re:crazy laws by orim (Score:1) Friday October 18 2002, @04:19PM
    • 8 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • This book will be very good! by Kyundrion (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:10AM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • HTML 5 by Trusty Penfold (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:10AM
    • Re:HTML 5 by CableModemSniper (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:45AM
    • 4 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • by mustangdavis (583344) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:11AM (#4453053) Homepage Journal
    The last actual chapter, Chapter 13, is a more in-depth look at U.S. web accessibility law. This was another one that I skimmed but one section did catch my eye. There is a discussion that raises the scary idea that web developers may be held liable for inaccessible web sites, even if their client told them to ignore the issue. If this is true, then it is an important point for every web developer to consider -- could you be held liable?


    Don't get me wrong, I think that web sites should be made to be accessible to everyone ... but being FORCED to make them accessible!! Isn't that going a little too far?? ... especially if a web developer is held liable even though his client said not to worry about it???!!??

    Again, I don't want to sound like a big jerk here, but where does freedom of expression and freesom to create come into play here? If a person wants a "cool" looking web site, and uses features that don't follow the "code" ... or if they don't want ugly alt tags popping up all over their site when people put the mouse over a pic .. that should be their right!

    However, since I am a web developer, maybe I should pick up a copy of this book to keep up on the laws on this issue .... (but I'll allow the review of this book determine if I purchase THIS book)

    Are there any other good books out there that have similar content?? - anyone???

  • Never understood until... (Score:5, Insightful)

    I never understood this until I started using my television as a computer monitor. Even set at 640x480 with large fonts, so many web sites were still illegible thanks to hard coded font sizes, tiny images with no alt text, etc.

    You can't really have an appreciation for accessibility until you need it. It is a good lesson for everyone designing web sites to really try to use them with their monitor turned off and with speech software or on a television screen from across the room.

    If anyone cares about your website, then the content matters as much or more than how it looks on your monitor. Well, I guess except for pr0n.

  • Jumping Ahead (Score:5, Insightful)

    by oddRaisin (139439) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:14AM (#4453077)
    It would be nice if the web were accessible to people using non-standard browsers in general. The number of Windows IE specific sites ( the Mac version of IE doesn't seem to be compatible ) out there, especially for major vendors, is sickening.

    So instead of focusing on making the web accessible for people using alternate access methods, we should settle on a web standard. It would make the alternate methods that much easier to implement.

  • We don't nee more legislation (Score:5, Insightful)

    by macdaddy (38372) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:18AM (#4453105) Homepage Journal
    I don't intend to sound cruel to folks that are disabled. I feel for them, really I do. However I don't believe the way to convince webmasters to design universally accesible web pages is more draconian laws. We might as well put authors and publishers in jail for not printing their books in every possible language. Our webmaster is having a horrible time designing a Unv website that complies with the ADA requirements. It's truely a nightmare. Now privately held companies are being sued because someone can't visit their website? This is not right.

    I think the way to go about writing univerally readable pages is to incorporate it into W3C HTML specs. I'm not saying eliminating all the things that aren't ADA compliant like javascript and tables. I talking about bringing the standard up to speed and making sure all browsers adhere to it strictly. If all browsers adhere to the standards very strictly then no non-compliant pages can be viewed with them. There's the incentive for webmasters to stick to the standards. Why are standards such an important thing? If everyone adhered to the standards, it would be infinitely easier to build tools for people with disabilities. Audio readers could parse the pages and read them back in an easy to understand way. ADA people could do what they need/want to do without pushing draconian requirements on to the rest of us.

    Like I said before, I don't mean to sound like a hardass. I just don't see how the needs of the few could justify draconian legislation. If we could adhere to a standard, it would make things easier for everyone, not just handicap persons.

    • Re:We don't nee more legislation by aridhol (Score:3) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:30AM
    • Re:We don't nee more legislation by A.Soze (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:37AM
    • Re:We don't nee more legislation by SPK (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:32AM
    • Re:We don't nee more legislation by catfood (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:28AM
    • Re:We don't nee more legislation (Score:4, Insightful)

      by wandernotlost (444769) <slashdot.trailmagic@com> on Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:51AM (#4454320)
      Our webmaster is having a horrible time designing a Unv website that complies with the ADA requirements. It's truely a nightmare.

      Clearly, your webmaster is incompetent. Tell him to learn HTML. Accesibility has been built into HTML from the beginning. The only source of nightmare in designing an accessible site is a misunderstanding of the web. The most common error is trying to make the web a graphic design medium. The web is not a graphic design medium. Disavow yourself of the mistaken notion that you can control what your site will look like on every (any) browser. To do that is to defeat the central premise of the web.

      HTML was designed to provide a logical description of textual content, which then could be formatted to the needs of the user. The designers of HTML have taken great pains to ensure that HTML, when written correctly, remains accessible in every type of browser. The problem is that incompetence is dominant in the web design field, and people write incorrect, poorly thought-out HTML, attempting to do something with the technology that is counter to its purpose. Dictating layout robs users of one of the great benefits of the web: that of being in control of the content's presentation.

      The web was designed to support users changing font sizes, etc., to meet their own needs. Fortunately, it was also designed with accessibility in mind, and thus a properly written HTML page is one that is also accessible. If you're using stupid tricks like spacer images and tables all over the place to try to control layout, you deserve whatever nightmares you're bringing on yourself.

      [ Parent ]
    • Re:We don't nee more legislation by Lemmy Caution (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @12:22PM
    • Re:We don't nee more legislation by 5KVGhost (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @12:43PM
    • Re:We don't nee more legislation by indiechild (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:14PM
  • Hopefully for the *users*.. (Score:5, Insightful)

    by wd123 (209211) <{moc.apra} {ta} {dw}> on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:25AM (#4453145) Homepage
    When I picked up this book, accessibility was an area that interested me but I am now convinced that it should be in the thoughts of every web developer. Some of the laws that are emerging to regulate accessibility look positively scary and there are lots of other good reasons to take accessibility seriously.

    As a disabled person I hope people take accessibility seriously because there are disabled people who need or wish to use the internet as well. I have a permanent visual impairment and one of the worst things is websites that force a tiny font on you instead of respecting your browser's settings for what *you* need the fonts to be sized as. I really hope that people would design ther websites in such a way that both disabled and non-disabled can use them easily, and I know this is totally possible, and doesn't even require any great sacrifice on the part of the designer in having a nice looking site. Unfortunately, of course, I suppose most people won't bother until it becomes a legal requirement. Still it would be nice if they did...
    • Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. (Score:5, Informative)

      by VargrX (104404) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:49AM (#4453307) Journal
      I have a permanent visual impairment and one of the worst things is websites that force a tiny font on you instead of respecting your browser's settings for what *you* need the fonts to be sized as.


      Then why do you let the html dictate what font's/fontsize you see?

      In the 3 major browsers, its easy:

      Moz: Edit|Preferences|Appearance|Fonts - choose your font's and typesize, and uncheck "Allow documents to use other fonts"

      IE: Tools|Internet Options|General Tab - Fonts Button: Set your Fonts and typesize here|Accessablity button: check the 2 "Ignore font..." box's, or you can supply your own style sheet

      Opera: File|Preferences|Fonts: there are too many options that you can control here, upto and including using your own style sheet.

      It's not difficult for the end-user to do, or to have it done for them by a helper.

      Just my .02
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by wd123 (Score:3) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:04AM
        • Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by parliboy (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:16AM
          • Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by wd123 (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:33AM
          • Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. (Score:4, Informative)

            by stephenbooth (172227) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:41AM (#4454226) Homepage Journal

            I think it comes down to the difference between absolute font sizes and relative font sizes. I like to use the 'Larger' setting for font sizes in IE (I've recently moved to Mozilla and now use the 150% setting) as it's more comfortable for me and I can read default sized text OK. If a web page uses relative font sizes then I can still read it OK as IE (or Mozilla) will apply the size adjustment I've specified on top of the one specified by the web page. However if the page specifies an absolute size the IE will render the text at that size (I haven't been using Mozilla long enough to make a definate statement on what it does yet), not appling the size adjustment I've specified.

            I've tried using the overrides in IE, including local stylesheet, but have found it patchy at best. For example if the page specifies a separate stylesheet IE will use my local one instead, if it uses an inline stylesheet it will override some settings but not all and if it uses style settings in the body of the page it won't override them at all.

            Probably for some sites the design and the content are intertwined, however most of the sites I use most often (mainly technical how-to sites, product information sites and Buffy fanfiction sites) the important parts of the content are separate from the presentation/design side of things. I want to be able to read the text, not struggle to read it due to it being set to a small font size or get a headache from the color scheme the page author has chosen to use (e.g. pale yellow on orange, yellow on blue, dark brown on black &c, those are real colour schemes I've seen in the past few weeks).

            Stephen

            [ Parent ]
        • Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by Eimi Metamorphoumai (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:35AM
        • Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by tshak (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:38AM
      • Many sites are broken WRT this by Gerry Gleason (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:39AM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by Blkdeath (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:50AM
      • Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by stephenbooth (Score:3) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:46AM
    • Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. by intermodal (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:59AM
    • Re:Hopefully for the *users*.. (Score:5, Insightful)

      by wd123 (209211) <{moc.apra} {ta} {dw}> on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:59AM (#4453374) Homepage
      I'm going to reply to bits and pieces of this, although it is an obvious troll, because I've heard this from people before and I'd like to dispel a few of the silly things that someone else might fall for.

      Fuck you, you fucking asshole. How entitled do you feel?
      I do not feel 'entitled'. I do feel that it is not too much to ask that people respect my browser's font settings. I've heard the same thing from plenty of people who are *not* disabled.

      Was Picasso told to make his paintings larger so that some genetic mistake could see them more easily? No, he was not.
      No, indeed he was not. However this is not a question of art (the laws at any rate are not). The question is one of useability in everyday places (such as business and government websites). You can do up your homepage however you like. If I find it horrid and unaccessible I will simply ignore it. However I think I should point out that nine times out of ten if I find a site unuseable most of my web-designer friends will concur. The "beauty" of websites is rarely seen in using tiny fonts.

      When you mandate it by law, you take arts away from the artist and put it in the hands of government.
      I wholeheartedly agree and would not dare ask anyone actually creating artwork for the sake of art to modify their work for me (or anybody else). But this isn't about art for the sake of art, it's about websites which people need to use for ordinary things such as shopping or researching governmental regulations.

      And furthermore, there is not a need for you to use the Internet. I'm sure that you receive disability checks and are quite taken care of by my tax dollars. Therefore your only need is that fat check. Once that comes you've got food, clothing, and shelter. The Internet is not a need and having porno stories read to you is not a need you fucking assgoblin.
      I think you will find that disabled people (such as myself) do *not* like being on disability. I'm not on disability, and I don't want to be. Those who I know that are on disability would much rather *not* be disabled and be able to do the things that others do (such as driving). Most people do not want to live on welfare.

      I guess that the front of the bus is no good place for black people. I suppose that they don't NEED to be able to sit in the front of the bus. Black people certainly never needed the use of the facilities which others had and were not available to them. Don't think it's the same? I bet there are a lot of things available on the internet which are simply not available to people offline. I think everyone should have access to the *information* on the internet. Poor, rich, disabled, abled, whatever. The internet has a huge amount of promise for the world at large and making it useful to everybody seems very worthwhile.
      [ Parent ]
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Ending Words by forged (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:25AM
  • Betsie (Score:5, Informative)

    by horace (29145) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:26AM (#4453153)
    This is how the BBC tackles this issue: Betsie [bbc.co.uk] It was simpler to handle things this way rather than expand rules for coding pages.
    • Re:Betsie by NachtVorst (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @02:14PM
  • Simple Question (Score:4, Interesting)

    by scott1853 (194884) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:28AM (#4453169)
    Why changes millions of webpages instead of making a few screen readers work better? It seems like spending billions of dollars throughout the country on upgrading everyones webpage isn't quite as effecient as spending a few million to research and develop some better OCR technology.
    • Re:Simple Question (Score:5, Informative)

      by wd123 (209211) <{moc.apra} {ta} {dw}> on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:39AM (#4453239) Homepage
      Well most peoples' websites don't need to be changed. These laws are only for institutions offering public services. This isn't your blog, somebody's homepage, or anything like that. This is sites that everyone needs to access because they are pointed there in order to do business with a company, or work with a government agency.

      I think a good compromise here would be what a lot of people did back when frames were all the rage. Simply offer a no-frills page for people who are disabled. You get to keep your flashy page for your regularly abled (hah) consumers, and those who need special access can get it.

      Also, I don't personally use/need screen readers, what I do need is websites that do simple things like respect my need for larger fonts (that means flash is right out). A lot of websites don't do that, and until the last year or so I had to actually copy out the text I needed to read and paste it into something else. Now mozilla at least does text enlarging which makes my life a hell of a lot easier.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Simple Question by NulDevice (Score:3) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:42AM
    • Re:Simple Question by Reziac (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:57AM
    • Re:Simple Question by gmhowell (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:28AM
  • Save some time... (Score:5, Informative)

    by toupsie (88295) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:28AM (#4453170) Homepage
    If you know how to design HTML pages*, you can save yourself a lot of time and effort by visiting W3C. They have a great HTML validator [w3.org] which will help you in your goal of accessable web pages. The NYC Public Library has a great page on making your web pages accessable [nypl.org].

    * That doesn't mean using Dreamweaver or any other GUI HTML design software. Real HTML-ers write it by hand. Real Men use vi [thomer.com] from what I hear but I like BBEdit [barebones.com] for UNIX [apple.com].

  • by meh237 (582408) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:33AM (#4453198)
    Interestingly, none of these is based on a moral argument -- they are all sound reasons why it is in the interests of an organization to think about accessibility. For example, one of these sections mentions that people with disabilities in the U.S. are estimated to control a discretionary income of over $175 billion. Making a site accessible to these people gives it access to an additional market that non-accessible sites cannot tap.

    This first chapter sets the tone for the whole book. It doesn't preach about accessibility for the sake of people with disabilities but rather seeks to convince the reader that accessibility is in their interests.

    Actually I think it more relates to ETHICS -- as it is dealing with one's profession -- but all the same. All the analogies other people have posted about how unfair these laws are and "why don't they make magazine publishers publish their magazines in Braile or spoken-word" are completely missing the point. Using a digital medium such as the Internet, it is easy to make your website easily accessible for persons with disabilities. Is it too hard to use the use of both your hands to enter in a few extra tags so that the Internet is "accessible to all!" You Slashdotters spuge yourselves when you think of how cheap it would be to put together free or close to free Linux boxes and ship them down to South America, yet your "creative expression"? is being denied by having to put in a few extra tags explaining the purpose of a picture. Give me a break you capitalistic freaks.

  • http://www.diveintoaccessibility.org/ (Score:4, Informative)

    by ChrisMWage (158008) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:39AM (#4453250) Homepage
    This site was incredibly useful for me in making my website more accessible.
  • If you want to skip the reading (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Rogerborg (306625) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:42AM (#4453262) Homepage

    Just make sure that your site is browsable with lynx [browser.org]. That's a pretty good indication that you've placed content and usability above presentation.

    Hmm, I wonder how text-to-speech handles the <blink> tag?

  • link to text-only websites by Traicovn (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:45AM
  • Dive Into Accessibility (Score:3, Informative)

    by palmech13 (59124) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:51AM (#4453315) Homepage

    Mark Pilgrim has a wonderful site at http://diveintoaccessibility.org/ [diveintoac...bility.org]

    It's set up as a 30-day transformation process, with each day containing a new change. He includes has a few example characters, each with their own unique set of disabilities and/or web-browsing choices, and he explains how each of these people would benefit from said changes.

  • Wrong way to look at the problem. by RobinH (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:52AM
  • Some confusion on section 508, etc. (Score:5, Interesting)

    by NulDevice (186369) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:56AM (#4453347) Homepage
    I've seen a lot of peole complaining about the guv'ment legislating their freedom of website-expression with section 508.

    Well, there seems to be a bit of misunderstanding, and it would've been better had the reviewer mentioned this.

    Section508 applies primarily to governmental websites. So if you're a .gov or a .state.us then it's likely you need to comply to section508.
    If you're a federal or state contractor you may have to comply.

    If you're not one of those things, do whatever you want.

    However, it may still be in your best interests to at least consider accessibility. You may not necessarily comply with all the W3C priority 1,2, and 3 standards but a few of them isn't going to hurt, and are generally common sense. There's a huge market out there for the disabled - if you ran a brick-n-mortar shop you wouldn't turn away $175billion worth of your customers, so why do it on the web?

    It's not like *all* of them are blind, deaf quadraplegics. I know people who use expanded fonts just because their eyesight isn't *great* - they're still legal to drive with glasses, but reading fine print on a screen necessitates assistance. Variable font-sizing and alt tags would suddenly open your website up to a lot of people just like that.

    Basically, to help make a site more accessible it doesn't require much - start with your alt tags, maybe longdesc if you're feeling generous, try not to deisgn with 7 layers of nested tables, and use relative font sizes. Most sites won't even need to be fully overhauled to accomplish this, just tweaked, and it can open up the availability to hundreds of thousands more people.

    It's not about being politically correct, it's not about avoiding lawsuits, it's about doing what's best for your website and delivering your content to the widest audience.
  • No info on dynamic visual data? (Score:4, Informative)

    by kuwan (443684) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:56AM (#4453349) Homepage
    I'm surprised that there isn't a chapter on accessibility and dynamic visual data (charts and graphs, etc.). This is probably one of the most difficult things to do in creating an accessible site. Example: how do you get a description of those ever changing stock charts, or sales information? There are lots of data that are displayed graphically that also needs a description to be accessible, but there aren't many tools out there for creating that description dynamically. Corda [corda.com] seems to be one of the only companies that I've found that has a solution for this. Their tools will create a text description whenever you create a graph. Sure the description may not be the best, but most of the time it will do the job.
  • by Insightfill (554828) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:00AM (#4453380) Homepage
    With few exceptions, I've usually found that accomodations to ADA laws (or just accessibility in general) often benefit everyone, not just those targeted.

    Examples: Ramped entrances, curb cuts at intersections for sidewalks, large and clear print, low-sided bathtubs, hand-rails everywhere, wider wheelchair entrances, lower switches and controls on walls...

    The list goes on, and of course there are exceptions of accomodations that are either counter to the needs of those not at benefit (or just annoying), but generally I've found that a well-designed web site or doorway helps everyone.
  • Added benefits (Score:3, Interesting)

    Building ADA compliant websites pull in some audiences that normally you wouldn't expect. If the font tags are properly coded, and the page devolves well if Style Sheets are turned off, you'd be surprised how your sites assist the elderly who can't see 12 pt text at 1600x1280, but can select a larger default font in thier browser.

    Likewise, our major application (initial unemployment registration) can be accessed with an Ipaq IR connected to a nokia cellphone and works well (enough) at 9600 baud.
  • Why not use ISBN.nu? by hacker (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:13AM
  • Any suggestions for me? by NineNine (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:16AM
  • Treat the problem, not the symptoms. by Genjurosan (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:21AM
  • Quick Question... by Loki_1929 (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:24AM
  • Government eating their own dogfood? by jhouserizer (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:25AM
  • How about focusing on USEABILITY first?! by mfago (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:32AM
  • Instead of buying the book by cygnusx (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:36AM
  • Accessibity, in a nutshell: do it (Score:5, Informative)

    by tmoertel (38456) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:59AM (#4453842) Homepage Journal
    I'm surprised at how many people are complaining about having to make their web sites accessible. Why is this such a big deal? It's easy to do and helps not only people with disabilities but also you the creator of the web site.

    Why? Here's the quick course:

    On the web, the primary way that information is represented is in the form of HTML and XML documents.

    Neither HTML nor XML was designed as a visual medium; rather, both are intended to represent information in a manner that is independent of presentation.

    However -- and this is where the problems start -- almost all other media that designers and content creators have experience with (e.g., the ever-popular ink on paper) are visually oriented media, and so many designers and content creators approach web media with this bias.

    As a result, all too many web sites are designed with the goal of looking a certain way instead of communicating the intended information clearly. This is an understandable error because with most other media (e.g., ink on paper), these two goals are one and the same. But it is still an error.

    To correct the error requires nothing more than the following:

    1. Make sure that the designers and creators clearly understand what is to be communicated, not merely how it looks.
    2. Make sure that each piece of information to be communicated is represented explicitly, not relying upon a particular visual interpretation to convey its meaning. For example, if you want to represent the text "Chapter 1", use the plain text "Chapter 1"; do not use GIF whose pixels can be read as "Chapter 1" when visually interpreted. (If for some reason you are compelled to use the GIF rendering, annotate it (via ALT) with the text "Chapter 1" so that the underlying information is once again made explicit. Note, however, that unless there is a compelling reason to do otherwise, it is best to use the plain text. Being able to render text in your pet font is not a compelling reason.)
    3. Then, once the information is represented clearly and explicitly, attach style sheets to lend the desired visual (and other) presentations to the information.

    Even if your web site's audience does not include people with disabilities, there are many good reasons for making your site accessible:

    • Information in an accessible site is readily available to web crawlers, indexing agents, and search engines. As a result, an accessible site is more likely to be properly scanned, categorized, and presented as a valid search result to people who may be interested in your site. In short, accessible web sites are easier to find. Therefore, if you want a larger audience, make your site accessible.
    • Making your site's information explicit and independent of any particular presentation makes it easier to change your site's content and easier to change your site's design. It also makes it easier to delegate one or both of those tasks.
    • Accessible web sites are also well-formed and valid (i.e., conform with the appropriate HTML and XHTML document type definitions). This eliminates a class of "browser errors" and makes accessible sites easier to process with automated tools such as machine translators, indexers, and so forth.
    • Finally, it is often easier to build a great web site by separating the content from the presentation than it is to muddle these concerns and attempt to manage them as one. After you build a few web sites that enforce this separation, you'll never want to go back to the old way.

    There you have it. When doing the right thing is easier, why not do it?

  • medical websites (Score:3, Informative)

    by alkatraz (617373) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:00AM (#4453863)
    A few weeks back, vennix.com [vennix.com] had a very interesting article on what they consider accessible websites for the healthcare/medical industry. Interesting read.
  • Bobby (Score:4, Insightful)

    by r_j_prahad (309298) <r_j_prahad@hotma ... m minus language> on Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:15AM (#4453993)
    I am surprised that nobody has mentioned Bobby yet. Developed by the Center for Applied Special Technology (CAST) in cooperation with the W3C, Bobby is "a software tool designed to help expose and repair barriers to accessibility and encourage compliance with existing accessibility guidelines."

    I've used it extensively over the past year. It used to be freeware when it was owned by CAST, but still... at $99USD it is a miniscule cost for any company that must comply with accessibility on it's web pages.

    "Bobby" [watchfire.com]
  • To repeat a common line... by awtbfb (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:55AM
  • From Someone On Both Sides (Score:3, Interesting)

    by mgrochmal (567074) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @12:21PM (#4454536)
    From the posts that I've read, there are some misunderstandings about the intentions of the book and the ADA.

    First, a bit of background on what I've learned over the past few years. I was born with a few visual defects, but I could still get around with a good set of glasses. Over the years, my vision has steadily degenerated, partly from the stiffening of the eye muscles, partly from a bad accident in my younger years. Now I can't see out of one eye, and only see a monochrome image in 20 degrees of vision, where a normal person can see about 120 degrees.

    My second year in college, I became friends with someone who was completely blind. He's an excellent writer, and has publications in a few magazines (don't recall which, though). However, when his printer's error light started blinking one night, he called me on the phone and wanted me to fix it. It was out of paper, but because the printer was old, it wasn't telling the computer what the problem was*. He couldn't fix the machine because it wasn't telling him what was wrong. All he knew was that he hit print and nothing was happening.

    As for some of the comments about forcing standards on people's creativity, consider many of the real-life standards from the ADA. When you go to a major store such as a shopping mall or a Wal-Mart, how often do you see several handicapped parking spaces or a small ramp on the sidewalk on the sidewalk? Those are the kinds of adaptations the ADA covers. The people who design the blueprints have standards they adhere to to make the building accessible, so they do it in the beginning. It's not like companies make them do it unwillingly, but they just do it.

    In a response to someone who said that disabled people shouldn't complain because they get fat disability checks: I'd love to hear how you define "fat". I get a disability check because of my visual problems and Asperger's Syndrome. I get ~$170 a month. My rent is around $650, but is subsidized down to around $200. Given that I also have to pay for utilities, transport, food, Internet access, and other basics, how do you explain how I shouldn't have to worry? I want to work, but the last 10 jobs I interviewed for were turned down for other people. I don't want people to bend over backwards to accomodate for me. I want to live independantly.

    Overall, the comments on this article are interesting to read. Some people understand that this about reasonable acomodation. Others feel this is about requiring people to crimp their writing styles for people they may never meet. It's not about that. There's a difference between making Internet portals and information archives accessible and making Sally's "This Is A Picture Of My Cat" page universally accessible. Businesses have handicapped parking spaces and ramps. Your house probably doesn't.

    *Before anyone jumps on how the guy should've had a better printer, many of the people I worked with don't have the latest tech because they cannot afford the new computers. Thus, they get help from an agency that trains them in adaptive technology. Most of the computers they give people are whatever people donate to the agency or are found in second-hand sales. They get funding from the government and independant donations. Think of things like this when you complain about paying for taxes

  • PDF Forms - bleh by VJTod (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @12:27PM
  • Not just for blind (Score:4, Interesting)

    by stankyho (172180) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @12:27PM (#4454589) Homepage
    Accessibility is not just for the blind. A Web site builder needs to think about if someone like Stephen Hawkings or Christopher Reeves could navigate the site as well, without just "tabbing" through every link. Also Web standards does not equal accessibility either.

    A good example of an accessible site is the one for the School for the Blind. [k12.ma.us]

    I don't think Flash should go away, but designers need to decide when is an appropriate time to use it. Games sites like NickJr.com [nickjr.com] and PBS Kids [pbskids.org] make good use of Flash and shockwave(I have kids). But band sites and company sites that are all in Flash do little but get real annoying fast and alienate those who can't use the site.

    Wired [wired.com] just recently did a complete redesign of their site to follow Web standards and use XHTML and CSS. More info is here [wired.com].
  • by Bazzargh (39195) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @12:58PM (#4454893)
    as Churchill would say. The problem with getting widespread accessible websites is the widespread tools that make it a chore to do. DW users get all the support they need to have javascript blinkenlights everywhere, but there is no preview of what the page would look like on a screenreader. Or, better still, a mode which allowed wysiwyg editing of the resulting alt/title/longdesc'd to bits page.

    If this appeared as a default tab in DW, Frontpage, and other html editors, it would become very hard for people to claim they didnt know their page looked crap in anything but IE6.

    The best hope for this I guess is Mozilla, which has an ongoing accessibility project [mozilla.org]. If only the option to turn off fonts, images, tables, ... was one click instead of twenty, and could be toggled without diving into preferences, people might actually use it to preview their pages. Its not everything, but its a start.

    -Baz
  • In Govt website Sec 508 hell by Boomer2 (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @01:26PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • How to Test? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by RAMMS+EIN (578166) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @01:41PM (#4455265) Homepage Journal
    I have been developping my webpages with compatibility in mind for as long as I can remember. Ever since XHTML 1.0 I have developed my pages to be in compliance with that, hoping that, this way, they would work correctly both in HTML viewers and in much simpler to make XML viewers. Testing has always been a major concern (not everyone complies to the standards, I'm not mentioning any names, but M$ is a good example) for me. The only thing I never got to was arual style sheets. I would _love_ to use them, but have not been able to find a good, free test suite, let alone a browser that honors Aural CSS. Such a browser would be great both for testing purposes and for reducing the amount of work my eyes have to do... Does anybody know of any such program that works on Linux or *BSD?

    ---
    A computer without Windows is like a race car without an entertainment system.
  • ADA 508 Compliance for Federal Websites... by dolguy (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @03:28PM
  • link for german-speaking people (Score:3, Informative)

    by malana-cream (546316) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @04:10PM (#4456542)
    here's an interesting webpage about this topic, with some useful tips for developers (sorry it's in german).

    einfach für alle [einfach-fuer-alle.de]
  • The best advise for web authors... by anarkhos (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @04:21PM
  • bane of accessiblity (and my existence) Netscape 4 by sporkboy (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @05:02PM
  • Just using stylesheets properly would help by Snaller (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @06:52PM
  • accessibility and australia by kac5 (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @07:01PM
  • This'll get modded down but ... by Scotch Game (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @11:59PM
  • "Forced speech" constitutionality issue by Animats (Score:2) Wednesday October 16 2002, @06:47AM
  • The Two-Site Approach by davedigi (Score:1) Wednesday October 16 2002, @12:58PM
  • Bookpool cheaper (Score:3, Interesting)

    by draed (444221) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:07AM (#4453022)
    Bookpool : $32.50 [bookpool.com]

    bookpool almost always has the cheapest programming books.
    [ Parent ]
  • Don't click on RedWolves2 book link (Score:3, Informative)

    by theduck (101668) <theduck@ne[ ]uy.com ['wsg' in gap]> on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:14AM (#4453080)

    Other vendors typically have it for less than Amazon. Go to Dealtime [dealtime.com] and use their book price comparison engine to get the best price. In this case, they report [dealtime.com] that Walmart has it for $31.49 [walmart.com]. And if you provide your zip code, they can compare prices including shipping.

    And, of course, there's always half.com [ebay.com] for used books.

    [ Parent ]
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:Boring Web (Score:4, Informative)

    by aridhol (112307) <klacquement@gmail.com> on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:26AM (#4453154) Homepage Journal
    Web accessibility doesn't prevent beautiful pages. The Web Accessibility Initiative [w3.org] by the W3C has information on making web pages that degrade well. This means that you can have all the flash, Javascript, ActiveX, and everything else you want, and still let someone using Lynx and a screenreader hear what you have to say.
    [ Parent ]
    • Re:Boring Web by Gambit-x7x (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:37AM
  • Re:Boring Web (Score:3, Insightful)

    by henben (578800) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:29AM (#4453178)
    A lot of accessibility measures aren't going to cramp a designer's style at all. How exactly does adding ALT tags to images affect the design?

    It's web designers who are ignorant of the correct use of CSS, and the importance of simple things like how to support non-Javascript browsers who think that accessibility means every page looking the same. It's nonsense.

    You can make beautiful, accessible pages [alistapart.com] if you know what you're doing. A List Apart are hardly ignorant or non-artistic.

    Does that look exactly the same as UseIt.com to you?

    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Boring Web (Score:3, Insightful)

    by swb (14022) <mobocracy@gmail.com> on Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:44AM (#4453280)
    if most web designers where following the rules made by ignorant and non artistic people web would be boring place...

    If most designers focused on usability as much as they focus on "artistic merit", the web would be a lot more legible.

    I'm all for cutting edge design, but most web sites have an application function that gets lost in teeny-tiny type, hard-to-read color combinations and excessively busy animation.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Let's get something straight by aridhol (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @09:59AM
  • You just don't get it, do you? (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Millennium (2451) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:25AM (#4453538) Homepage
    No one is trying to regulate how a page looks. These laws are not intended for that. What they are trying to regulate is how the page is coded, so that it can be easily (and automatically) converted to other formats by accessibility software.

    This does not have the slightest impact on the ability to design a page. There is no page out there which could not be coded in an accessible manner. It's just a matter of getting people to do it.

    And incidentally, you may find that coding your page in an accessible manner opens up new possibilities, if you're willing to look at them. Everyone knows, for example, about the visual styling properties of CSS. Not many know about the aural styling properties; you can set voice, tone, speed, even apparent position. And there's even some interesting stuff you can do with Braille in CSS, if you really want to. Or don't; as long as the information gets through that's the important thing, so you don't have to design this part of it if you don't want to. But the possibilities... oh, the possibilities...
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:Let's get something straight (Score:3, Insightful)

    by aronc (258501) on Tuesday October 15 2002, @10:35AM (#4453599)
    Blind people can lead rich, full lives. - in environments that don't require a dependancy on EYESIGHT. The net IS one of those environments.

    I usually don't speak this strongly but from someone who is married to a blind person:

    You are an idiot.

    Computers and the digitization/electronic distrobution of knowledge could, if done properly, be the single greatest boon towards overcoming the obsticles the handicapped face that mankind has ever invented. With a very small amount of work almost any real information in a computer can be processed and fed out of a computer such that anyone has access to it. The net is not dependant upon eyesight unless lazy developers make it that way. At worst you design a bare-bones text only version. At best you simply add a few tags while you're in the design stage. These relativley simple accomidations open up the entire world worth of information to a segment of the population that previously had very little access to it.

    The whole point of a society is to have the whole act such that the individual gains benefit. Your attitude is bad for society and bad for humanity.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:The internet isn't a RIGHT!!!!! by DuBois (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @12:15PM
  • Re:The internet isn't a RIGHT!!!!! by nom sandgorgon (Score:2) Tuesday October 15 2002, @12:41PM
  • Re:Let's get something straight by l33t-gu3lph1t3 (Score:1) Tuesday October 15 2002, @05:43PM
  • 17 replies beneath your current threshold.