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Learn How to Program Using Any Web Browser

Posted by timothy on Mon Feb 09, 2004 01:45 PM
from the charles-atlas-muscles-in-6-weeks dept.
honestpuck writes "Harold Davis has started with a marvelous idea, teaching programming using a language available on all platforms, JavaScript, and an interface familiar to everyone, the web browser. Learn How to Program Using Any Web Browser is written for absolute beginners to learn the basic principles of programming -- or at least that's what the cover would have you believe." Read on for honestpuck's evaluation of that claim.
Learn How to Program Using Any Web Browser
author Harold Davis
pages 396
publisher Apress
rating 5
reviewer Tony Williams
ISBN 1590591135
summary Not much programming, but well written

The language is suitably light and simple, the book well-structured and broken down into easily digested chunks. The order in which concepts are introduced is fairly traditional for a language tutorial: first we get types, variables and statements, before moving on to conditionals, loops, and functions, followed by arrays and objects before finishing with event-driven programming. Davis' decision to leave string handling till last seems a little perverse and personally I would have introduced functions earlier.

My real complaints about this book centre on the abstract nature of the discussion. There are very few real world examples that could be useful to anyone. The best you get is a version of "Rock, Paper, Scissors" in Chapter 3, and an 'auction' application. The book would have been improved dramatically if the end result of your study was a few things you could actually point to.

I also have a complaint about the target audience for this book. The web page for the book at the publishers states that "The target reader is likely a twelve- or thirteen-year-old, who is just starting to get curious about what makes a computer work -- or an office worker who has been using computer applications for years, and would like to spend some time delving deeper into what makes them tick." Most adults and even teenagers don't want to 'learn how to program' as much as they want to learn how to use a tool to perform a task. If your tool is JavaScript, then it's almost certain your task is related to building web pages, but this gets little real attention from Davis. For even younger students, this book totally lacks anything to hold their attention -- the lack of real-world examples hurts here.

I also take issue with the title: this book doesn't really teach 'programming' much at all. It certainly teaches you to write JavaScript, but where are the sections about the real lessons of programming, such as top-down vs. bottom-up design, or breaking a task up into chunks? Even debugging has little coverage -- a single thirty-page chapter, half of which is specific to JavaScript or the throwing and handling of exceptions. Since the work of Papert and others at MIT twenty-five years ago, we've learned a great deal about how to teach programming concepts in a simple manner, but Davis appears to have ignored all this and given us a language tutorial. The publisher's web page for the book says "very emphatically, this is not a book about programming JavaScript." If that's so then I'd argue that it isn't a book about learning the principles of programming either.

It is obvious from this book that Davis is an excellent writer; if he had tried to write a book to teach JavaScript and had focused on the tasks for which it is often used this, volume may have been superb. As it is, he has shot for a higher goal and fallen far too short.

If you would like to check it out for yourself, you can go to the web page for the book where there is sample chapter, the Table of Contents (though they call it a "Detailed TOC" as distinct from the 'Table of Contents,' which is just a list of 11 chapter titles) and index, all in PDF format.

I went looking for a book that I could give to my 11-year-old daughter now that she has become interested in "what Daddy does." I'm still looking, I'm certain that this one isn't it.


You can purchase Learn How to Program Using Any Web Browser from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.

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  • Java? by Anonymous Coward (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @01:46PM
    • Re:Java? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Dutch_Cap (532453) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:00PM (#8228094)
      Java may be available on every platform, but most computers don't have a java compiler installed. A computer without a browser that can handle javascript is unthinkable, though.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Java? by McAddress (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:05PM
      • Re:Java? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by wwest4 (183559) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:27PM (#8228450)
        How does the desire or willingness to learn assembly translate into entitlement to program?
        [ Parent ]
        • Re:Java? by McAddress (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:40PM
          • Re:Java? by devphaeton (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:55PM
            • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
          • Re:Java? by Moderator (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @03:12PM
            • Re:Java? by bsd_usr (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @04:00PM
            • Re:Java? by adamjaskie (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @05:35PM
            • Re:Java? by IllogicalStudent (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @07:08PM
            • Re:Java? by Marvelicious (Score:1) Sunday February 15 2004, @11:32PM
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          • Re:Java? (Score:4, Interesting)

            by G. W. Bush Junior (606245) on Monday February 09 2004, @03:14PM (#8229140)
            (Last Journal: Monday September 30 2002, @06:48AM)
            desire is not the issue. If you know how easy it is to run people over, you would realize that by teaching driving to anyone even vaguely interested in it, we are harming our own community. Driving is a dangerous skill and should only be used by people mature enough to use it responsibly. The best way to make sure they are mature enough is to make learning hard enough that all of those irresponsible drivers will run off to download pr0n instead of learning to drive.

            I could go on... but I think my point is clear :)
            [ Parent ]
            • Re:Java? by Negatyfus (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @03:20PM
              • Re:Java? by G. W. Bush Junior (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:30PM
          • Re:Java? (Score:5, Insightful)

            by Tassach (137772) on Monday February 09 2004, @03:18PM (#8229183)
            (http://www.livejournal.com/~tassach/)
            I call bullshit. Who's fault is it that it's easy to write viruses:
            1. People who teach kids to program
            2. Programmers who write insecure software that's prone to viral infection
            3. Megacorporations that sell software that is inherently insecure because of intentional design choices
            4. Parents who don't teach their children to respect the rights of other people
            Blaming viruses on people who teach programming is like blaming grafitti on people who teach art.
            Blaming viruses on the people who write the tools is like blaming grafitti on the people who make spray paint.
            Blaming viruses on the people who make & sell insecure software is like blaming grafitti on the people who make & sell buildings that aren't grafitti-proof.

            Learning how to program and releasing a virus are very different things, just as learning marksmanship and shooting people at random are very different things. Put the blame where it belongs: on people and not the technology.

            [ Parent ]
            • Re:Java? by sxe_p06 (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @04:29PM
            • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
          • Re:Java? by Ikoma Andy (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @03:44PM
          • You've got to be joking..... or stupid by zibix (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @04:06PM
            • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
          • Re:Java? by wwest4 (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @04:11PM
          • Re:Java? by nineoneone (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @04:16PM
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      • Re:Java? by dasmegabyte (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @07:10PM
    • Re:Java? (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Frymaster (171343) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:09PM (#8228237)
      (http://frymaster.ca/ | Last Journal: Monday September 15 2003, @12:58AM)
      Harold Davis has started with a marvelous idea, teaching programming using a language available on all platforms, Java

      er... ansi c is available for all platforms too.

      i think h.d.'s angle was write an intro to programming book that uses an interpreter that comes default with every os install... hence the javascript.

      of course it's an incredibly lame angle since it breaks frymaster 14th rule of programming:

      "if you can't install the interpreter/compiler you probably can't code in the language"

      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Java? by NoMercy (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:55PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Java? by TheSpoom (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:16PM
      • Re:Java? by joib (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:34PM
      • Re:Java? by RedWizzard (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @05:15PM
    • OT: test your nerd factor by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:18PM
    • Re:Java? by LuxFX (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @02:20PM
      • Re:Java? by Laxori666 (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @10:34PM
        • Re:Java? by LuxFX (Score:2) Tuesday February 10 2004, @04:08AM
      • Re:Java? by LuxFX (Score:2) Tuesday February 10 2004, @04:11AM
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    • Re:Java? by NanoGator (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:39PM
    • Re:Java? by Euphonious Coward (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @03:15PM
      • Re:Java? by nineoneone (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @04:36PM
    • Re:Java? by JamesOfTheDesert (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @11:29PM
    • Re:Do I have the Asperger's syndrome? by nineoneone (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @04:32PM
    • 6 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Best way to learn (Score:4, Insightful)

    by pi eater (714532) on Monday February 09 2004, @01:47PM (#8227918)
    (http://www.wabshirts.com/)
    The best way to learn how to program is to sit down in front of a computer with a reference handy and dive in!

    geeky shirts.. funny shirts [wabshirts.com]
    • Re:Best way to learn by Anonymous Coward (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @01:52PM
      • Re:Best way to learn (Score:5, Insightful)

        by KrispyKringle (672903) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:56PM (#8228887)
        Perhaps a degree isn't the best way to spend your money. I'll give you that.

        Past that, though, I'd be very interested to see your arguments that a degree doesn't teach you anything. Sure, you could go learn it from books, on your own, perhaps. If you were a genius. But without someone to guide you, to show you what to learn (because you just don't know what you don't know), you've got a far more difficult task ahead of you to learn the same things. And only a very small number of people I've met can learn everything they need completely on their own (coding, systems administration, and so forth are pretty easy--but they aren't what I'm talking about).

        University degrees vary, admittedly. Some really are just how to code. And those don't get you anything you couldn't learn on your own. But some teach you computer science (which has about as much to do with coding as civil engineering has to do with construction work). Calculus is useless, perhaps, but math is not. Algorithm design allows you to learn about what problems can and cannot be solved. Why encryption works and which technologies can be broken. How to design programs and algorithms which will always give you the right answer. How to implement a system which you can prove to be correct, and which you can prove will always execute in a certain amount of time. How a compiler works, and how we know it can deal with any legal input (and detect any illegal input).

        Any joker can learn to whip shit up in PHP. Anybody, given a little time, can learn to do application programming. Not to deride those, either; they're fun and valuable. But if you haven't learned these things (and from the sound of your post, I'd guess you didn't), you don't know how valuable they are. Or perhaps you learned things you didn't need for your job. Fair enough. But there's more to being satisfied than raking in the big bucks. And academics, as much as you may not appreciate them, are in fact valuable.

        A lot of universities have serious flaws in their programs. But that doesn't mean they are worthless. Like I said, learning on your own is great. But you don't know what you don't know.

        [ Parent ]
        • Re:Best way to learn (Score:4, Insightful)

          by Stween (322349) on Monday February 09 2004, @03:32PM (#8229458)
          Thankyou. I can't stand these folks who think a Computing Science degree is meant to teach people how to program, they're obviously missing the whole point.

          Ideally, a Computing Science degree is meant to teach people who want to learn something about Computing Science (and there's a hell of a lot of it out there, so even a degree is only the tip of the iceberg). If those same people are career motivated too, then well done them.
          [ Parent ]
        • Re:Best way to learn by OldCrasher (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @06:01PM
          • Re:Best way to learn (Score:5, Insightful)

            by KrispyKringle (672903) on Monday February 09 2004, @06:29PM (#8232025)
            You may disagree on every point, but I think you pretty much make my case for me. You say that you knew more about ``computers, programming, getting systems to work, and generally getting around the business than most of the lecturers...CS does not teach you what you need to know about what you will need in business [sic]''.

            This I agree with entierly. Now, this depends a lot on where you go, for sure (for example, where I am a student, we have many group projects, precisely to teach more applicable programming skills), but many computer science programs (and indeed, what makes it computer science instead of IT or coding) teach theory. They leave it to you to learn the (relatively easy) application. For example, I've learned languages that I will never use in work. Ever. But I can learn a new language of most sorts in a few hours.

            There are many facets to computer science, and it seems you've only seen a few. For example, I have a professor who does very well-funded secure systems work for the DOD (he's been mentioned on Slashdot in the past). If that isn't practical application, I don't know what is. At the same time, I have another who's primary interest is quantum computing theory, something not likely to be remotely practical for many years or decades (I believe the highest number factored so far was 15).

            You remind me a lot of a business student who was taking a computer science class I was in. He made a jerkoff statement about how business computing classes (in which he was learning Microsoft .NET) didn't bother to teach how hash tables actually work, but just how to use the implementation. He argued that learning how they work is a waste of time, since in the real world, you'll only have to implement the .NET libraries, not actually code a hash table from scratch.

            His failure of thinking is pretty obvious. Anyone can learn to use the .NET libraries in a few hours (even him). But in a few years, when .NET is out and something else is in, he's gotta learn that all over again. And anyway, all that aside, somebody's gotta actually write the libraries, even the ones at Microsoft.

            You sound like you do a lot of applied computer science--systems engineering, administration, perhaps coding--but this isn't what computer science is all about. If your eyes glaze over at the thought of algorithm design or proofs of correctness, you might still be a perfectly decent coder, but computer science probably isn't for you. Don't get me wrong, either. I'm a student, but I also work as a systems programmer. And a lot of the skills I knew from classes really weren't applicable. I could code, but I needed a lot of work on my organizational and project-management skills. And to be honest, pretty much everything I know about systems administration, Linux, BSD, and networking I learned on my own. What I learned in school, you are right, was not specifically what I needed to do my job. It was more.

            And I think you are backwards about Universities trying to make sure they handed out ``so many'' degrees. If they hand out to many, they become devalued. It's all about keeping themselves exclusive that makes anyone willing to pay tuition.

            [ Parent ]
          • Re:Best way to learn by Cska Sofia (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @07:01PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Best way to learn by bryanthompson (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:59PM
      • Re:Best way to learn (Score:5, Insightful)

        by M.C. Hampster (541262) <M...C...TheHampster@@@gmail...com> on Monday February 09 2004, @03:09PM (#8229065)
        (Last Journal: Saturday July 30 2005, @12:51PM)

        From the grandparent:

        The best way to learn how to program is to sit down in front of a computer with a reference handy and dive in!

        Most universities don't teach "programming". They are teaching "computer science". You might do well to learn the difference.

        If you just want to be a programmer, you might want to look at something like CIS.

        [ Parent ]
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Best way to learn (Score:5, Insightful)

      by tuffy (10202) on Monday February 09 2004, @01:58PM (#8228067)
      (http://slashdot.org/)
      The best way to learn how to program is to sit down in front of a computer with a reference handy and dive in!

      IME, it's best to have a problem to solve, too. Back in my carefree days, that usually involved trying to program a neat game I didn't have. Nowdays, it seems most of my toy programs involve organizing all the data I've accumulated on my hard drives.

      [ Parent ]
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Best way to learn by strider3700 (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @01:59PM
      • Re:Best way to learn by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:22PM
      • Re:Best way to learn by armando_wall (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @02:37PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Best way to learn by imbaczek (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:49PM
      • Re:Best way to learn by IWorkForMorons (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:07PM
        • Re:Best way to learn (Score:4, Insightful)

          by DrPascal (185005) on Monday February 09 2004, @03:37PM (#8229534)
          (http://slashdot.org/)
          Every time I hear someone whining about not getting a job because they don't have a degree, I have to laugh.

          I don't have my degree yet either, and I don't blame companies for not hiring without a degree. It's a baseline ... a common ground. Whether or not someone is talented is far more important (I agree with you), but you learn more things at college than how to program. You learn how to manage time, follow coding guidelines, and stick with a goal and see it through for N years.

          I've seen many an idiot graduate college, but I've also seen many programmers that think they're great until they have to work in a group with others and follow a coding style or come to some sort of agreement on design/angle. It's more than sitting at home alone writing up the next DB handler.

          I realized that the degree is my foot in the door to a lot of companies, so I'm taking night school classes while I work so I can get that foot in. Get a job without a degree? You are lucky. Don't get one? Go back to college or switch careers. The goal of a good hirer for a company is not to hire neither the idiot with the degree nor the genius without one, but the genius WITH one. Remember that.
          [ Parent ]
      • The best way to learn is not in school by Bruce Perens (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @04:03PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:Best way to learn by nule.org (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @04:10PM
      • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • Re:Best way to learn (Score:5, Insightful)

      by RetroGeek (206522) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:00PM (#8228093)
      (http://slashdot.org/)
      The best way to learn how to program is to sit down in front of a computer with a reference handy and dive in!

      Yup.

      And after many years of doing things which make your applications buggy, hard to maintain, full of "cute" tricks, no security, no comments, you finally start doing things properly.

      Yup, dive right in.

      The thing about courses is that you learn the importance of doing things in a particular fashion. So you end up with applications which CAN be maintained, ARE secure, and so on.

      And this comes from experience. I have been doing application development for more years than I care to remember using over 10 different languages, three of which I am actively using right now. I did just dive in. And when I look at what I wrote many years ago, well, I am glad I am the only one that can see that code.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Best way to learn (Score:5, Interesting)

      by Quay42 (444528) <slashdot@40 t w o . o rg> on Monday February 09 2004, @02:04PM (#8228154)
      (http://quay.wordpress.com/)
      As a sort of corrolary to this...you need to have something that you're trying to *do*. You really can't open up a reference book and just start to code, you really need a reason to do it. It's sort of like asking someone you know who can speak another language to "say something in German" or whatnot: they're left floundering. If, on the other hand, you ask them to "count to 10 in German" then it's a different story.

      Any new language or software engineering concept I've learned that has been from a book has only been because I had to learn the language for the task at hand or it's been brought to my attention that a particular design pattern (or what have you) may be appropriate. I personally can't just pick up a book on programming with a cup of coffee if I don't have a real reason to.

      Just some thoughts.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:Best way to learn by ewhac (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:13PM
    • Re:Best way to learn by Master of Transhuman (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:25PM
    • Re:Best way to learn by CuteAlien (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:44PM
    • Re:Best way to learn by jd142 (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @03:01PM
    • 3 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • HUH? (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 09 2004, @01:47PM (#8227925)
    Why Java? Everyone knows VB is the language of certified professionals.
    • Javascript != Java (Score:4, Insightful)

      by nitehawk214 (222219) on Monday February 09 2004, @01:53PM (#8227994)
      I know this was meant as funny, but Java is a normal accepted language. Because it is more structured then Perl or other languages, I highly reccomend Java to beginners.

      Javascript, or ECMA script, is a terrible non-standardized (despite being created by a standards board) peice of junk.
      [ Parent ]
    • Re:HUH? by FuzzyBad-Mofo (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:01PM
    • VB? by sulli (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:02PM
    • Re:HUH? by rsborg (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @02:03PM
    • Re:HUH? (Score:4, Insightful)

      by Tassach (137772) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:09PM (#8228235)
      (http://www.livejournal.com/~tassach/)
      VB is actually a non-sucky choice as a teaching language. It's pretty beginner-friendly, has practical applicability, and (in the form of VBA) is already available on most computers. Most importantly, you can use the same language to teach both procedural and object-oriented concepts, something that you can't do in Java. VB/VBA is far from perfect but there are far worse languages to chose as a teaching tool.
      [ Parent ]
      • It also has a very nice debugger by fejikso (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:21PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:HUH? by spray_john (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @02:26PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:HUH? by DrEldarion (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @02:26PM
        • Re:HUH? by ibennetch (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:40PM
          • Re:HUH? by FuzzyBad-Mofo (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @03:08PM
          • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
        • Re:HUH? by Tassach (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @02:47PM
        • VB (6) Merits by zoney_ie (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @03:33PM
      • Machine Code (Score:5, Funny)

        by axis-techno-geek (70545) <rob AT goshko DOT ca> on Monday February 09 2004, @02:36PM (#8228564)
        (http://www.goshko.ca/)
        Available on ALL platforms, runs at top speed.

        Helps weed out the slackers ;)

        [ Parent ]
      • Re:HUH? by frission (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:52PM
      • VB is a mish-mash of random crap by John Harrison (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:04PM
      • Re:HUH? (Score:5, Informative)

        by Kphrak (230261) on Monday February 09 2004, @03:05PM (#8229002)
        (http://www.worldofschmitt.com/)

        Yes, VBA is available on most computers, IF the computer is running Microsoft Windows with Microsoft Office.

        Yes, VB teaches beginners. It teaches them that the only system worth coding on is a PC running Windows, because otherwise they won't be able to click and drop their components. The first thing a beginner learns is that they can write programs that look just like the Windows programs (i.e. Internet Explorer, Access, Excel), without first hearing that the reason that they can is that they are, in fact, starting the Windows programs, and that little Access app they wrote using New Application.thisMethod and New Application.thatMethod just called two separate copies of an Office application. And guess what? If you forget to "garbage-collect" (well, really Application.Close), which 99% of beginners do, you won't get a warning of any kind. Rather, the applications will just stay in your system memory, waiting for a close command that will never appear. I've seen programs that could use 200K of memory (large in itself, but livable considering the VB interpreter environment) using almost 128 megs.

        That's just Visual Basic, which is pretty awful unless you're making a demo for your local suit. VBA is much worse; in fact, I think it's the spawn of Satan himself. At least you know when the application appears, because you have to open it to start your program, but since VBA is just macros within the main window, you cannot create menus, and the first thing you get to choose is the color of your window. This has spawned horrors of beginning GUI design such as magenta-colored windows, script fonts, and labels that respond to clicks to bring up more windows, just because programming is a last resort for VB and VBA; the star of the show is the decision of whether to make your font Script or Wingdings.

        This rant should be taken in view of my recent experiences; I have rewritten several programs built by budding VB6.0 programmers in the past few months, each one more horrendous than the last. VB should only be shown to programmers after they have used a programming language, not a set of GUI design macros. Make no mistake, VB is like the cardboard televisions at the local furniture store: for display purposes only.

        [ Parent ]
        • Re:HUH? by Reverend528 (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @07:53PM
        • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
      • Re:HUH? by pierpa (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:33PM
      • Re:HUH? by benja (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @04:26PM
        • Re:HUH? by Prior Restraint (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @05:40PM
          • Re:HUH? by benja (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @05:54PM
            • Re:HUH? by Prior Restraint (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @06:05PM
              • Re:HUH? by benja (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @06:11PM
      • Re:HUH? by BandwidthHog (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @07:34PM
      • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
    • Great but... by n0dez (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @04:24PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 09 2004, @01:48PM (#8227933)
    by someone who learned to code from JS :(
    • by Tassach (137772) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:39PM (#8228622)
      (http://www.livejournal.com/~tassach/)
      A lot of the code you'll maintain was written by people who first learned to code in old-school BASIC (GW-BASIC, Apple BASIC, etc). EG:
      10 PRINT "Enter your name: "
      20 INPUT N$
      30 PRINT "Hello, ", N$
      40 PRINT ""
      50 PRINT "QUIT (Y/N)"
      60 INPUT Q$
      70 IF Q$ = "Y" 90
      80 GOTO 10
      90 PRINT "Goodbye, ",N$
      100 END
      There are few languages worse than old-school BASIC for teaching programming. For example, in many primitive dialects your only control structures were GOTO, GOSUB, IF (with no ELSE!) and FOR / NEXT. It taught a lot of bad habits which had to be unlearned, and left you clueless about constructs like CASE statements, WHILE loops and user-defined functions. However, most programmers who got started in the late 70's and early 80's learned BASIC as their first language. Most of them who went on to program professionally were able to overcome this early handicap :-)
      [ Parent ]
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 09 2004, @01:49PM (#8227946)
    Having a programmer's first effort be a JavaScript pop-up with: "Hello YOUR COMPUTER IS BROADCASTING YOUR IP ADDRESS TO THE WORLD!" is just wrong
  • My thoughts on it (Score:3, Funny)

    by ShecoDu (447850) on Monday February 09 2004, @01:49PM (#8227947)
    (http://sduran.inetlocker.com/)
    I bet this article is going to rise a lot of flames... come on.. javascript... slashdot? yeah sure...

    document.write("First Post");
  • Why teach programmers, period (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 09 2004, @01:49PM (#8227951)
    The last thing the world needs right now is more programmers. Teach them some other trade which won't be killed by cheap global labor.
  • Strongly disagree (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 09 2004, @01:50PM (#8227956)
    I think the reviewer's premise that 12-13 year old wants to learn programming for a specific task is bull. I think what the book is trying to speak to is how I learned to program: BASIC. I wasn't trying to DO anything specific it was just a good way to start playing around because it came free w/ the computer and you could make it beep or say hi or whatever. I think that posing javascript as a replacement (now that basic does not come packaged with the OS) is a GREAT idea. It's free, there is a developing environment built right in (well with mozilla at least) and it's actually fairly powerful while still beaing easy to learn.
    • Re:Strongly disagree by TexVex (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:06PM
    • Re:Strongly disagree (Score:5, Insightful)

      by HiThere (15173) * <charleshixsn@earth l i n k . n et> on Monday February 09 2004, @02:09PM (#8228231)
      But Python is free and available on nearly all OSs. And a decent language. And it comes with a development environment (not a great one, but it works!). And it has a sensible structure (similar to many other languages). And it comes with complete documentation. And....

      Now many of the same things could be said for Java, but I think that Python makes a better first language. In fact, the only competition that I see is Ruby and Lisp. But if you speak English, you'll probably find more help for Python. (And Ruby diagnostics need work!)

      Java is a popular first language in an academic setting, and in that setting it makes sense. But for learning on your own I feel that Python is a better choice.

      C ... well, it's available everywhere, and you can find help. But you need to deal with pointers and casts, and the warnings when you mishandle them are obscure. And then there's the gruesome things that you can get used to doing with the preprocessor...that make your code unreadable.

      C++....that's an unmentionable monstrosity. Sorry, but I'd sooner start a beginner with Ada. OTOH, most of the advantages of C++ can be captured in a more reasonable way with D (from Digital Mars). It's also available for free, but it's not available at all for the Mac. Even so, I thing even D is too complex for a first language (besides, it's still beta, or possibly alpha [it's gotten up to around version 0.8 over the last couple of years]).
      [ Parent ]
      • Re:Strongly disagree (Score:5, Informative)

        by haystor (102186) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:23PM (#8228413)
        Getting help learning Lisp is difficult for someone learning on their own. With no Lisp knowledge, it's hard to pick the right platform.

        For just learning Lisp, the path I took was:
        1. customizing a .emacs file
        2. customizing emacs packages
        3. writing my own emacs packages

        Most of my learning involved looking at someone else's code and trying to figure out how they did something. It's one thing to learn how a java feature like try/catch works by example, but trying to learn Lisp's defmacro by example is a path to madness. For that, Paul Graham's books are essential.

        The one major benefit to learning Lisp is that it can be bent to your will. This may require a change in mindset from C/Java where your spend the majority of your time conforming your will to fit the language.

        Only in learning Lisp have I again relived the "aha!" that came with the learning of a first programming language.
        [ Parent ]
      • Re:Strongly disagree by Major_Small (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:44PM
      • Missing the point... by YuppieScum (Score:3) Monday February 09 2004, @05:04PM
      • [insert pertinent subject line] by Laxori666 (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @10:11PM
      • Re:Barrier to entry is still too high by Leeji (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @10:12PM
      • Re:Strongly disagree: MIX! by HiThere (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @10:49PM
      • Re:Strongly disagree by HiThere (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @10:36PM
      • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • Does it support Lynx? by nacturation (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @01:50PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Badly titled. (Score:4, Insightful)

    The web browser is *not* an IDE. You do the programming in vim/gedit/notepad. (emacs is a bit much for javascript IMO)
  • rating (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 09 2004, @01:53PM (#8227995)
    5/5? 5/10?

    useless
    • Re:rating by 31415926535897 (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:09PM
    • Re:rating by spoonyfork (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:26PM
    • 2 replies beneath your current threshold.
  • I've done a fair bit of Javascript programming, I think it's an okay language. It certainly could be worse. But here are some random issues that I think may make it difficult for beginners to pick up:

    1) No print() or echo() function. If you want to write something to the equivilent of stdout, you need to use document.write(). And if you use alert() as you're debugging something, you'll quickly get tired of boxes that pop up, I know I have.

    2) Weird OOP syntax. If you want to create class foo, you first create function foo, then to create a method you go and create function foo.prototype.bar(). I think that's needlessly complicated. It also leaves the beginner open for a shock when they start studing OOP syntax of other languages, where a class is defined and its functions are actually defined INSIDE the class.

    3) No file/database support. Good luck trying to interact with a file or database from Javascript. As the user learns more about programming, they're going to want to use these sorts of things. Javascript just wasn't designed for that.

    Those are the biggest things off the top of my head on why I believe Javascript is not an ideal choice for beginners. (I don't claim to be a JS god, so if I'm wrong about any of the above, someone please correct me...)
  • ECMAScript (Javascript) is an awesome way to learn by xutopia (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @01:54PM
  • Best way to learn to program by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @01:54PM
  • Javascript for the Absolute Beginner by Pionar (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @01:57PM
  • Web Browser JavaScript for Beginners? (Score:3, Informative)

    by xxxJonBoyxxx (565205) on Monday February 09 2004, @01:57PM (#8228045)
    This is a crappy environment for beginners. The first thing they will bump into is crap-loads of IE vs. Mozilla vs. Netscape JavaScript inconsistencies. The second thing they will bump into is "how do I save information per user, not per browser". The answer is server code, probably in a different languages than JavaScript, so now newbies have to keep two things straight.
  • Alternative reading? by mj_bell (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:00PM
  • Just what we need by Silon (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:00PM
  • by daddywonka (539983) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:00PM (#8228104)
    (http://joshwilliams.com/)

    If the book's actual target audience is 12ish, I don't really see JS keeping the attention of children.

    I also don't think most 12-14 year olds really want an in-depth discussion of programming principals, like the review suggest. I think they'd rather it be fun. That could just be me...

    Though it's not free and only works on a couple of platforms, I think Flash and ActionScript are a great way to introduce people, especially young people, to programming. A few simple lines of code can replace the timeline based motion tweening and is a great, visual way to see how your code works. From there kids can add a few lines of code to make sound and images work interactively.

    True, it might not turn them into kernel hackers, but most kids would probably more interested in learning to program if it kept their attention. Action script can be very easy with many neat things taking only a few lines of codes but it can grow as your young programmer learns more and seeks more challenging projects.

  • Can I get a Hindi version? (Score:4, Funny)

    by BigChigger (551094) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:01PM (#8228113)
    Otherwise, no need to be training any new programmers.

    BC
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  • by Tassach (137772) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:01PM (#8228118)
    (http://www.livejournal.com/~tassach/)
    Chosing the first language to teach a fledgling programmer is pretty difficult. The ideal language has lots of different qualities:
    1. It has to be easy to learn and use. In order to build the novice's confidence, it should encourage early successes. It should be easy to debug.
    2. The tools have to be accessable to the student. Ideally, you want to use a language which is already installed on their computer, or at worse be a free download which will run on all major platforms.
    3. It has to be practical. If the student can't use it to do something which is useful TO THEM fairly early on in the learning process, they probably won't stick with it.
    4. It has to provide a good foundation for future learning. This means that it should support all the standard code constructs and have a syntax similar to other more advanced languages. It also means that it shouldn't teach them any bad habits they'll have to unlearn later.
    I'm sure there are other qualities, but this is a pretty good starting list. On the basis of this simple list we can eliminate a lot of potential candidates as first language.
  • An excellent idea (Score:3, Informative)

    by Tryfen (216209) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:02PM (#8228127)
    (http://www.digitalmasons.co.uk/)
    As many other posters have commented - JS comes "free" with Windows. Just like Basic did way back in my youth with a BBC Micro.

    The greatest problem I have with programming today is that it's so damn hard to install the compiler! Java is probably just about the easiest, but you still need to add PATH statments.
    XAMPP makes installing PHP as simple as it could be.

    The last time I tried to install ANT or GCC or anything even vaugly complicated I had to wade through a hundred different URLs to find the right package, download, install, edit INI files and PATH statement, fiddle with the registry and GAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!

    We can all agree the JS isn't the best language on the block. But unless it comes in a ready to go package - most people just won't bother.

    It's the same thing as Linux ('scuse me while I rant) you spend ages and ages installing and configuring the damn thing when all you wnat to do is work!

    Right. Rant over. To conclude - JS bad, installing IDEs and compiles: worse!
  • the joy of js (Score:4, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 09 2004, @02:02PM (#8228130)
    most program headers start off with something like

    if netscape
    if netscape3
    else
    else if opera
    if opera5
    else
    elsif explorer
    elseif mac
    elseif explorer 5
    elseif explorer 5.5
    elseif explorer 6.0
    else

    nothing like a consistant clean language.... and this is nothing like one.
    but then java has some of the same problems in some areas
  • It's a TOOL (Score:5, Insightful)

    by mabu (178417) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:03PM (#8228147)
    The reviewer makes an excellent point. Programming is a *means to an end*. People don't learn how to program just so they can say they program. To not put the art of learning programming into the context of real-world applications is counterproductive.

    Then again, pardon me for being cynical, but this seems reflective of the new type of motivation we have these days behind people choosing vocations. People go to law school, not because they have any interest in law, but because they're under the impression they can make money if they're a lawyer. The bottom line is that if you get into any vocation without having any passion or interest, you'll never be any good at it.

    This reminds me of the arguments over which programming language is best. It's moot. The application and environment should dictate which tools be used. Likewise, if you want to learn to program, and don't know for what platform or application you're interested, you're on the wrong track... figure that out before you buy any books.
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  • "Program"? (Score:5, Informative)

    by oneiros27 (46144) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:04PM (#8228169)
    (http://www.annoying.org/)
    Most people haven't even figured out how to make a page look good in more than one browser.

    See the Any Browser [anybrowser.org] Campaign.

    [And I don't mean 'detect what browser they're using, and serve them a page that's specially tailored to their browser', I mean making a single page that is written to the standards, and doesn't look like crap when some new unknown browser renders it]

    We know JavaScript isn't good for 'Any Browser', as there are browsers that don't support it -- and it's even frowned upon [w3.org] by the WAI [w3.org]
  • Nice way to start by sokkalf (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:06PM
  • Rated a 5?!? (Score:3, Interesting)

    My real complaints about this book centre on the abstract nature of the discussion

    I also have a complaint about the target audience for this book

    I also take issue with the title: this book doesn't really teach 'programming' much at all


    Yet the book review rates a 5? What gives? I would think a book with more than one "I have issue with" would rate a bit lower than "the best possible rating it could get."
  • just what we need (Score:5, Insightful)

    by CAIMLAS (41445) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:07PM (#8228201)
    (http://forums.boiledfrog.us/ | Last Journal: Friday February 21 2003, @01:08PM)
    Yes, that's just what we need - every Joe, Shmoe, and Harry that surfs the web to start thinking he's hot shit on Sunday because he's a "programmer", and now he can go out and grab one of those elite tech jobs!

    Of course, knowing the stupidity of HR, they'll likely get hired.
  • First language (Score:5, Interesting)

    by Mr_Silver (213637) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:07PM (#8228211)
    Why not teach them VB?

    No seriously.

    It's easy, it's pretty, you get a grasp of functions and objects and you can do moderatly complex things pretty quickly which means that they'll get instant gratification.

    If you want to introduce them to programming, given them something that can make them go "wow!" pretty quickly. Thats what made those Spectrum BASIC books so good - within 10 minutes you had lots of pretty squares up on the screen.

    I'm sure a lot of people would shudder at the though and want their kids to start with C++ or Perl - but I think that it might do more damage than good. No one wants to be scared off by pointers or regular expressions.

  • Plug for Squeak Plug-in by Googol (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:07PM
  • by miu (626917) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:08PM (#8228216)
    (http://www.magnetbox.com/riaa/ | Last Journal: Saturday July 10 2004, @03:34AM)
    I keep seeing those "Fighter Maker" and "RPG Maker" PS2 games on the shelves. Seems like that would be the thing to give a 12 or 13 year old to get them interested in programming and maybe learn some of it's basics.
  • Programming with JavaScript is impossible by LostCluster (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:09PM
  • by taliver (174409) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:09PM (#8228233)
    Here [rutgers.edu] is a course I helped design to teach Javascript programming to CS170 students-- pre-business majors.

    Javascript was our idea of a language replacement for what we were using True Basic. The idea was to have a language where the students wouldn't constantly question why they were learning it, and to pretend like we were doing some level of web enabled e-commerce site programming.

    The problems we have found come from the lack of structure of the language, and combined with the browser's desire to fix as much as it can. While this is a nice feature for a real developer, it sucks when you have to tell a student "I know it works on the browser, but it's still wrong."

    The other issue is trying to keep to a small set of structures for programming, and making sure the TAs for the course don't get too ambitious with teaching dozens of alternative ways to accomplish the same thing. For students at this level, they just get confused.

    But it does work well, and it is nice not having to ask students to buy another piece of software to program with at home. (Unlike True Basic.)

  • Why bother with this review at all? by Chess_the_cat (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:13PM
  • It works (Score:5, Insightful)

    I began teaching my brother programming with Javascript. I also recommended to my department head that they use Java as a beginning programming introduction.

    You need to learn the fundamentals of programming - not necessarily Assembly-level, but something that, upon completion of a beginning course, will be useful and applicable to other languages.

    We spent three weeks learning conditionals, loops and case - in my Java course (specifically did not use the word "class" there, for anti-pun reasons...). The prerequisite courses were "intro programming" and another, such as VB. But all but three of students came into the class unable to understand an if-else. My time was wasted, my prof was furious and most students gave up.

    You know what they learn in the intro programming class? QBASIC. You know how many people had a clue coming into Java or VB or C++? Two of us. We'd both been programming for ten years (and we were 20) and could teach the class. It was a req. for the major, so we had to take it.

    Programming is best learned in front of a computer, with a task to do and a good reference to rely on. If that reference is a book, another programmer or freakin' Google, you can still learn the basics from there. I liked the idea of teaching my brother using Javascript because I could 1 - look at his code, 2 - point him at countless resources, examples, etc. and 3 - demonstrate that even if your code follows the rules, works on your machine and is well commented/indented, it won't work on everyone else's machine.

    It won't teach you the inner workings of a machine (previous Slashdot post on Assembly as an intro language) but it will help prepare you for a real internship or at least for a class that will teach you more.
  • ratings by Savatte (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:17PM
  • "I'm certain that this one isn't it." (Score:3, Informative)

    by kfg (145172) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:18PM (#8228354)
    Instant Hacking [hetland.org]

    KFG
  • Well, that's XXI century's BASIC (Score:3, Informative)

    by apeine (191096) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:22PM (#8228393)
    Sure Javascript can be used to teach programming, but if what you do is not at least a bit useful, it won't catch teenagers attention for long. And javascript is quite powerful, even though it lacks some functions that would make it perfect (external file reading, that could be made from the same url as .js file, for security reasons).
    Or we con go back to basic, which could be handled on a disk (or CD), so learning to program would be quite easy!!!
  • Mozilla (Score:3, Informative)

    by sl0wp0is0n (708422) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:22PM (#8228401)
    Newer versions of Mozilla have a complete debugging subsystem for javascript. You can step through the code and examine variables. All the fancy stuff that a debugger provides - that too wrapped in a nice GUI.
  • JavaScript as a first language? by Shimmer (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:23PM
  • FORTRAN by Perl-Pusher (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:27PM
  • non compiling languages by avandesande (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:28PM
  • How about instead... by Howard Beale (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:38PM
  • The nice thing about this approach by stuffduff (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:39PM
  • Sometimes, it's all you've got by Eberlin (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:41PM
  • Try Python (Score:4, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 09 2004, @02:42PM (#8228676)
    I highly recommend "How to Think Like a Computer Scientist: Learning with Python." [greenteapress.com] It's a great introduction to programming using a language that doesn't get in the way. [python.org] Python is also a great language for starting procedurally and "graduating" to OO. Besides being a great book, it's available for free in LaTeX, PDF, PostScript, and HTML. Needless to say, both the language and the book are available "using any web browser." As for JavaScript, I have tried to keep it at arm's length for as long as possible.
    • Re:Try Python by Reverend528 (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @06:19PM
  • Inevitable bad joke... by ivanmarsh (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:43PM
  • It's Not Wannabe by rixstep (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:44PM
  • The awesomeness of javascript by dtfinch (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:45PM
  • First language (Score:3, Interesting)

    by DarkSarin (651985) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:46PM (#8228727)
    (http://www.bmo-web.com/ | Last Journal: Wednesday August 18 2004, @08:37PM)
    Although it has many of the limitations that something like JS or JavaScript has, I personally think that PHP is a great first language. It does require an installation of the language (unlike JS), but I think that it has better syntax.

    I am also far from being a pro, and much of my code really stinks in terms of readability (I am working on it), but speaking from the perspective of someone who had a really rough time with my one programming (we used C) class, I think PHP is better than Javascript for a first language.
  • Logo (Score:5, Informative)

    by Hollins (83264) on Monday February 09 2004, @02:55PM (#8228860)
    (http://www.lipsey.org/jim)

    I still think the best language to learn to program for kids (starting around 7) is Logo [softronix.com]. Instant gratification, cool animation, you can make impressive patterns quickly and it teaches the basic control structures.

    Then, they can graduate to StarLogo [mit.edu], an object-oriented version of logo which is easy to learn, but very powerful. A number of labs are using it for research simulation. Go with the turtle.

  • What langauge should I use to teach.... by 1iar_parad0x (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:57PM
  • Intro to CS by dfj225 (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @02:58PM
  • Any Browser? by Dracos (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:02PM
  • And Acrobat by OECD (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:11PM
  • oh, don't ruin the next generation of programmers by Knights who say 'INT (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:15PM
  • Here is a free crossplatform alternative by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @03:17PM
  • JS & math by agslashdot (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @03:26PM
  • How I Got My Start by Cruxus (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @03:30PM
  • No PASCAL? by cschmidt (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @03:32PM
    • Re:No PASCAL? by dtfinch (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @05:49PM
    • Re:No PASCAL? by pclminion (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @06:30PM
  • The big advantage of Javascript is... (Score:4, Interesting)

    by mykepredko (40154) on Monday February 09 2004, @03:34PM (#8229494)
    (http://www.myke.com/)
    that it is free and the license built into the browser allows for development work. There aren't an awful lot of other programming languages/development that can boast this.

    Having Javascript already available in the browsers is an advantage because a very great majority of computer tech teachers that I have met have troubles with even understanding the concept of directories and paths, let alone have a snowball's chance in hell of installing something like gcc under Cygwin.

    Going off on a personal rant, I would like to see teachers be a lot more scrupulous with respect to licensing software. How seriously is a kid going to take the classroom instruction on not sharing other people's IP when the teacher tells them to download VB, QBASIC or some other clearly copywritten tool into their PCs?

    As an added bonus, Javascript is not terrible to program in and you can come up with some good simple client side games. How about Pong, Tic-Tac-Toe, Minefield, Battleship, etc.?

    I think that using Javascript for teaching programming is a step in the right direction, but it sounds like this book could have done a better job in making it compelling for kids.

    myke
  • PHP is a great choice (Score:3, Informative)

    by Richard_J_N (631241) on Monday February 09 2004, @03:37PM (#8229538)
    Why not choose PHP. It's a very nice language with clear syntax, no need for a compiler, can even be run on Windows, is perfect for the web, and also for scripting. It also has enough in common with C/perl to make it easier to learn these languages (whereas say VBscript is completely foreign). It also has an easy learning curve - it's looseley typed, and gives helpful error messages.

    I can recommend the book: SAMS "Teach yourself PHP in 24 hours"

    Richard
  • Why JavaScript, when you can use a real language? by don.g (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:44PM
  • Sample student portfolio by bytesmythe (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:44PM
  • JS bad.... by SlashDotForever (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @03:52PM
  • Javascript is a horrible language to learn first by popo (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:52PM
  • php by pierpa (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @03:58PM
  • Client-side scripting by DRO0 (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @04:21PM
  • I'd really like to learn with this book but... by marcello_dl (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @04:24PM
  • A Great Language to learn on by 5 Second Rule (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @04:27PM
  • QuickBASIC and 3-2-1 Contact by KalvinB (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @04:32PM
  • PHP is better..... by Retarded_Ninja (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @04:38PM
  • Python Programming for the Absolute Beginner by Daverz (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @05:04PM
  • by JeffTL (667728) on Monday February 09 2004, @05:06PM (#8230907)
    Pretty good book. Covers the C++ language, though it talks an awful lot about UML flowcharts and the like -- okay if that's your style, but for my purposes, farting about with pseudocode and flowcharts is more difficult than writing the damn code in a real language -- at least Applescript, and usually C++.
  • C++ as first language... (Score:3, Informative)

    by xenoxion (727108) <venesectrix@gmail.GINSBERGcom minus poet> on Monday February 09 2004, @05:33PM (#8231291)
    I just turned 14 and I'm learning C++ as my first language. I don't think it's overly hard, though pointers did take me a few weeks to get the hang of :/. My only gripe is that it's hard to make something that I'll actually use (and thus I sometimes lose interest), because I still don't know how to import/export/create files, and because I wanted to make a few simple games but after seeing some basic OpenGL code I know I'm not going to be doing that for a while (using the tutorials at NeHe [gamedev.net] I see that I need to write a few hundred lines of code just for a blank screen...).
  • Nostalgia by akheron01 (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @05:54PM
    • Re:Nostalgia by Rich Klein (Score:1) Tuesday February 10 2004, @09:54AM
  • What is really essential for kids: Type-ins by ReyTFox (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @06:39PM
  • The very best way to learn by Laxori666 (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @10:29PM
  • I say teach em prolog... by Phil John (Score:2) Tuesday February 10 2004, @12:30AM
  • Java\JavaScript by SoulSkorpion (Score:1) Tuesday February 10 2004, @03:25AM
  • Some tutorials and advice on the Web. by ninejaguar (Score:2) Tuesday February 10 2004, @10:33AM
  • *Any* web browser? by lazarusL (Score:1) Wednesday February 11 2004, @12:42PM
  • Re:How about by objekt404 (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @01:51PM
  • Re:How about by Anonymous Coward (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @01:52PM
  • I *wish* JavaScript had Java like syntax. I can't count how many times I've typed this:


    for(int i=0; i<length; i++);

    when I meant to type this:

    for(var i=0; i<length; i++);

    or even worse:

    function func1()
    {
    for(i=0; i<length; i++) func2(i);
    }

    function func2(item)
    {
    for(i=0; i<length2; i++) //do something with item
    }

    when I meant to type:

    function func1()
    {
    for(var i=0; i<length; i++) func2(i);
    }

    function func2(item)
    {
    for(var i=0; i<length2; i++) //do something with item
    }

    (For those of you who don't know JavaScript, "i" will be global without that "var" definition.)
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:javascript is horrible (Score:5, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward on Monday February 09 2004, @01:55PM (#8228023)
    not only does it's syntax suck

    Ironic.

    [ Parent ]
  • Re:javascript is horrible (Score:3, Insightful)

    by SamiousHaze (212418) on Monday February 09 2004, @01:58PM (#8228061)
    I'd have to disagree with you. The syntax is very similar to C/C++/Java - (don't flame me because its not *EXACTLY* the same - and it is more limited) - and secondly, "but it's full of exploits" - Maybe the interpretter on some platforms gives it power outside the boundries of the language but that is *NOT* the language's fault. Javascript is a tool and has its place and usefulness just like any other tool.
    [ Parent ]
  • Re:javascript is horrible by FuzzyBad-Mofo (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @01:58PM
  • Re:javascript is horrible by Tablizer (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @01:59PM
  • Jesus y'all are dumb by Theatetus (Score:1) Monday February 09 2004, @02:04PM
    • 1 reply beneath your current threshold.
  • Re:JavaScript? by falsified (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:13PM
  • Re:javascript is horrible by popo (Score:2) Monday February 09 2004, @03:56PM
  • 19 replies beneath your current threshold.
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