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Linux Business Books Media Operating Systems Software Book Reviews

Test Driving Linux 202

Posted by timothy from the free-tanks-for-everyone dept.
Michael J. Ross writes "As Windows users hear more about Linux, they may be intrigued to give it a try, if only to learn what the buzz is about. But a major hurdle, possibly the most daunting, is how to obtain and install Linux on their PCs without disrupting their Windows installation. To the average PC user (not a techie), the required steps are intimidating; to a computer newbie, they appear impossible. But with the introduction of Linux in the form of 'live CDs,' trying out Linux is as easy as popping a CD into one's computer and rebooting. The entire operating system is stored on the CD, thus avoiding having to install it on the hard drive. Test Driving Linux: From Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds , by David Brickner, includes a live CD and explains how to use it." Read on for the rest of Ross's review.
Test Driving Linux: From Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds
author David Brickner
pages 341
publisher O'Reilly Media
rating 8
reviewer Michael J. Ross
ISBN 059600754X
summary A guide for trying Linux on a bootable CD included with the book

This title is another in the growing list of books published by O'Reilly Media, whose user group representative kindly gave me a copy of the book to review. The book comprises 341 pages, and has plenty of screenshots, an appendix of solutions, and a Linux CD secured in an envelope within the back cover.

The particular Linux distribution ("distro") provided on the book's CD is Move, which is based upon Mandriva Linux, which was formerly known as Mandrake. While most Linux aficionados have their favorite distro, and can argue vehemently in favor of one against all others, there is widespread agreement in the Linux community that Mandrake established itself as a solid choice years ago.

Brickner begins this manuscript with an enthusiastic first chapter in which he introduces the computer neophyte to Linux, using cars and test driving as analogies. He briefly mentions how Linux got started, how it fits into GNU/Linux, and what the terms "free software" and "open source" mean. He then describes how to get started with Move by booting off of the CD -- assuming that one's computer has the minimum system requirements (detailed in the book's preface). Non-confident readers will likely appreciate the author's reassuring explanation that Move will not affect their computer's current setup. The chapter continues with an explanation of the KDE desktop, its "kicker" panel, the look and feel of a typical KDE application, window control, desktop background customization, KDE programs that replace Windows applications, and finally how to log out properly.

The next nine chapters of the book cover major application areas, and how to perform common tasks using the corresponding KDE applications of those areas: Web surfing (using Konqueror or Mozilla), file management (Konqueror again), music and videos, games, communication (e-mail and instant messaging), digital image editing (using the GIMP), desktop customization (using the KDE Control Center), office suite (OpenOffice.org), and money management. The final three chapters explore the Linux command line (Konsole), popular programs that are not included on the CD, and advice to those users who decide to switch over to Linux long-term.

In all of the chapters devoted to the major KDE applications, Brickner does a competent job of explaining the basics to the beginner, including handy summaries for more proficient users (such as keyboard shortcuts), and plenty of screenshots that help the reader to verify that they are running the correct application under discussion, and that they are looking in the right places within the application windows. However, all of the figures are in black and white, which makes distinguishing text extremely difficult in those cases where adjacent colors, that are typically well contrasting, merge into shades of dark gray. In addition, I spotted one erratum, on page 84, in which the first letter of "Booting advice for Move" is in a strangely different font, for no apparent reason. This is not representative of the book as a whole, which is well-made, neatly laid out, and uses a flexible layout-flat binding.

Brickner helpfully warns the user of potential pitfalls, such as showstopper dialog boxes being hidden by other Windows. He should be commended for advising the user to set their browser identification to alternatives other than Internet Explorer, if only to encourage Web site owners to not limit the browsers that will work with their sites. One minor error in the browser chapter is, when referring to the Gecko rendering engine used by Mozilla, the author incorrectly identifies it as "gecko," though that may have been an error on the part of the publisher.

For those users who enjoy trying out Linux enough to consider abandoning Windows completely, the final chapter of the book will be most welcome. Brickner identifies which distros are capable of resizing an NTFS-formatted partition; this determines whether or not a user can install that distro on a hard drive already containing Windows, and thus have a dual-boot system. He also distinguishes between those distros that are Windows-like, in that the Linux characteristics are hidden as much as possible, versus those which make no such effort. One potential weakness in his discussion, is that he mentions the ability or inability of particular editions of various distros to authenticate against Windows servers, and yet he does not explain to the reader what that means. On the other hand, any reader who does not understand the idea, probably does not need to.

Overall, I found this book to be worthy of recommendation to anyone who would like to learn more about how to use a robust Linux distro on a live CD. The coverage of topics appears complete, at least for those tasks that the typical computer user needs to perform on a daily basis. There are few errors in the text, and the author has done an admirable job of warning the reader as to potential problems, as well as noting when certain features will not work when running off of the CD, and why. These explanations go a long way to assuaging the reader, who might otherwise become frustrated and conclude that either Move is not operating properly, or that they are doing something wrong. The publisher's choice to use only black and white images, no doubt has the advantage of keeping the book's cost reasonable (a list price of U.S. $24.95), but it has the disadvantages of reducing the utility of those illustrations -- especially when discussing color customization -- in addition to the aforesaid problem of adjacent grayscale regions merging into dark blobs that are difficult to distinguish from one another.

Test Driving Linux is clearly of value in better introducing the public to the power and promise of Linux. It is undoubtedly one of the most user-friendly tools that could assist Linux advocates in spreading the word, and encouraging computer users to break away from operating systems that are expensive, buggy, and non-secure. As Brickner notes in his preface, when people unfamiliar with Linux give it a test drive, by simply booting off of the CD provided with the book, they just might want to stay with Linux long-term.

Michael J. Ross is a freelance writer, computer consultant, and the editor of PristinePlanet.com's free newsletter. You can purchase Test Driving Linux: From Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds from bn.com. Slashdot welcomes readers' book reviews -- to see your own review here, read the book review guidelines, then visit the submission page.
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Test Driving Linux

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  • linux distro is Move? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by blanks ( 108019 ) on Thursday June 09, 2005 @06:03PM (#12774385) Homepage Journal
    Very strange distro to have with this book, they should have chossen one of the "buzz" distros, sience this is what the book is about. Not trying to start a distro war, but come on, a distro that has a name people would have heard once or twice would have been nice.

    • Re:linux distro is Move? (Score:2, Insightful)

      by Anonymous Coward
      He explains this in the article. He says that the Move CD is based on Mandriva Linux which is the same distribution as Mandrake used to be. Mandrake is very well known as a very good distribution. It is the first one that I myself used as that is all that my local Wal-Mart had at the time and I did not have access to a high speed connection nor a cd burner. Nowadays, I prefer Slackware but that is just a personal choice. Of course nowadays cd burners are cheap and so are high speed connections. So I
    • I think it's what used to be MadrakeMove. Mandrake has always been the distribution I'd recommend to newbies.

  • Windows to Linux in 60 Seconds (Score:3, Insightful)

    by FidelCatsro ( 861135 ) <fidelcatsro&gmail,com> on Thursday June 09, 2005 @06:03PM (#12774388) Journal
    Great idea and all , but Id be amazed if you could power down windows in that time , never mind boot a live CD ...(not entirely meant to be that serious a remark)
    • 60 seconds?

      I'd just be happy if Knoppix booted at all.

      Well, it's not quite that bad. It boots on 2 of my three systems (kind of).

      Background....

      I run Linux everyday (at work). I log into my xp desktop then ssh to my redhat box. I map a network drive and use Xvision (an sco product...gasp) for my X functions. That is where I get my real work done. Of course the emacs and such are local on my XP box but I "make" like the best of them.

      I don't do this because I like to, I do it because that is what my c

      • Well I have a Linksys WUSB12 wireless USB stick for access. As far as I can tell it's not supported under Linux at all (bummer). Any hints?

        This guy [linux.com] has an article telling how he got his working.

        I've no idea why your keyboard and mouse aren't working since I've never had that problem, ever. Doesn't matter that they're Microsoft, since they should still work as standard (I use an MS mouse on my Linux box).

      • I've never had a problem with anything but sound and wireless with linux. I always build my own computers though, but I just grab whatever the most popular bleeding edge stuff is at the time.

        My sound issues were all resolved with the latest version of ubuntu. Wireless is still spotty, but I only use it so I dont waste my bandwith on long downloads.
    • " Great idea and all , but Id be amazed if you could power down windows in that time , never mind boot a live CD ...(not entirely meant to be that serious a remark)"

      I will note that LiveCDs do not boot as fast as an installed-to-hard-drive OS. That being said, the linux desktops (installed) that I've experienced typically boot a bit faster than 98SE, 2000, or XP that I've typically had set up to dual-boot.

      A bit off-topic, but I was impressed with FreeSBIE 1.1, http://www.freesbie.org/ [freesbie.org] an installable (usin

  • Pictures? (Score:1, Funny)

    by Anonymous Coward
    This title is another in the growing list of books published by O'Reilly Media, whose user group representative kindly gave me a copy of the book to review. The book comprises 341 pages, and has plenty of screenshots, an appendix of solutions, and a Linux CD secured in an envelope within the back cover

    "Lots of screenshots?" Is that the technical termonolgy for "It's got plenty of pictures?" Because it's hard to read a book without pictures.

    (kidding)

  • True. (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Poromenos1 ( 830658 ) on Thursday June 09, 2005 @06:04PM (#12774397) Homepage
    This applies not only to the computer newbie, but also to experienced users. I use Windows XP but I want to dual-boot to Linux for various obvious reasons. Installing Linux on the same HDD as Windows is too risky (I have tried it before two or three times, and I had to repair windows and reinstall the service packs before they would boot). LiveCDs aren't really a good solution if you want to use Linux as your (even secondary) OS, because saving data is not as practical and they take more to load. Virtualisation is a better alternative, although it is still a bit slower than the real thing and graphics aren't supported so well... What's a man to do?
    • I have had this same problem many of times, most installs requires 3 installs. 1: install linux on second partition. 2: reinstall windows because partition 1 was formattted. 3: install linux again.

      Best bet is to allways backup everything on your windows machine, I normally use this as a good reason to reinstal windows every few months.

    • Re:True. (Score:3, Informative)

      by non-poster ( 529123 )

      What's a man to do?

      Well, to start with, install Linux correctly. If you have an existing Windows partition, you probably want to use the Linux tool resizentfs (or ntfsresize or whatever it's called) that comes on most distribution's install CD's, unless you have partition magic or something like that. Most modern Linux distributions' install programs will automatically put your Window's partition into the boot loader so it is a menu option when booting.

      I don't think I've ever heard of anyone needing

      • Re:True. (Score:5, Informative)

        by ncc74656 ( 45571 ) * <scott@alfter.us> on Thursday June 09, 2005 @07:17PM (#12775094) Homepage Journal
        Most modern Linux distributions' install programs will automatically put your Window's partition into the boot loader so it is a menu option when booting.

        Given Windows' propensity for fscking with the MBR seemingly at will and for being somewhat twitchy when another OS changes things around, you might be better off having your Linux setup leave the MBR alone. Have your Linux bootloader write itself to a floppy, dd the first block of the floppy to a file, and move that file someplace where Windows can see it. A one-line change to c:\boot.ini will add an option to the NT bootloader to hand control to the Linux bootloader. My dual-boot systems are set up that way.

        For a dual-boot system, GRUB might be a better choice than LILO. If you change the partition table on your HD within Windows, the order of partitions in the table might change. Let's say that /dev/hda4 is your Windows partition, /dev/hda1 is /, /dev/hda2 is /boot, and /dev/hda3 is swap. If you resize the Windows partition (with PartitionMagic, for instance), you might find that the resized Windows partition is now /dev/hda1 and /, /boot, and swap have moved to /dev/hda2, 3, and 4. With GRUB, you'll be able to edit the kernel options at boot time so you can at least boot to single-user mode. Once you're there, editing /etc/fstab and rebooting will get your Linux system working again. Doing the same with LILO installed would most likely involve booting Linux from a CD...if you don't have a boot CD with you, you're SOL.

        • For a dual-boot system...Let's say that /dev/hda4 is your Windows partition, /dev/hda1 is /, /dev/hda2 is /boot, and /dev/hda3 is swap...

          congratulations. you have lost your potential convert in a hopeless tangle of jargon, and it will be a cold day in hell before he even thinks about booting into Linux.

        • Re:True. (Score:4, Informative)

          by ozmanjusri ( 601766 ) <aussie_bob AT hotmail DOT com> on Friday June 10, 2005 @12:04AM (#12777117) Journal
          Given Windows' propensity for fscking with the MBR seemingly at will and for being somewhat twitchy when another OS changes things around, you might be better off having your Linux setup leave the MBR alone

          Garbage. Windows won't change the boot record randomly, and for the average user there's no reason to do anything but accept the default that your distro offers you when setting boot options.
        • I Disagree with your sig. The desecration is for real.

          Read more about it here: Desecration of the Qur'an at Guantánamo Bay [wikipedia.org]

        • Most times your Windows partition is at the beginning of the disk thus considered hda1. Usually resizing would be shrinking the partition and putting Linux after it which would make your / etc be hda2, etc.

          The only way in your explanation that Windows would move from hda4 to hda1 is if you deleted the first 3 partions and then moved the Windows partition to the beginning of the drive and recreated the rest. Plus most often you never see a hda4 but instead a hda5 etc as they are logical partitions.

          Point is

          • The only way in your explanation that Windows would move from hda4 to hda1 is if you deleted the first 3 partions and then moved the Windows partition to the beginning of the drive and recreated the rest. Plus most often you never see a hda4 but instead a hda5 etc as they are logical partitions.

            Point is that you would never see these results if all you do is resize, the whole partition numbers changing would only happen if you resized and created partitions in between.

            It happened to me recently on m

            • Ah that's different. And that is a valid point. The one (but not the only) thing I hate about Windows is if you have two partitions with the OS on C: which is the first partition and another partition and then you delete the first partition. When you go to install Windows again it will expect the existing partition to be C: and will assign the recreated as D:
              It would have been nice if you could have assigned drive letters during install.

              Very irritating.
      • He said that he had to do a repair. This potentially copies files off of the original cd. If he hasn't slipstreamed the latest Service Pack into his cd, it could put on old files that were patched later on. Thus needing to reapply the latest Service pack to get the latest files back.

    • Re:True. (Score:4, Informative)

      by phaetonic ( 621542 ) * on Thursday June 09, 2005 @06:28PM (#12774612)
      Use another hard drive for just Linux. You will not have to touch your Windows install.
      • a far better option is just to wipe windows off completely... duel booting is just a crutch to keep yourself in the warm fuzzy blanket of windows... go cold turkey and be a real man/woman... you'll thank yourself later

    • What's the problem with dual boot on same disk? (Score:4, Informative)

      by Locke2005 ( 849178 ) on Thursday June 09, 2005 @06:36PM (#12774681)
      1) Create 2 partitions
      2) Install Windows in first partition
      3) Install Lilo
      4) Install Linux in second partition
      Other than the caveat that Windows MUST be installed first (otherwise it will clobber the Linux boot sector), I don't see why this should cause a problem. Perhaps your problem is with dynamicly resizing an existing parition?

      • Re:What's the problem with dual boot on same disk? (Score:5, Insightful)

        by Xyrus ( 755017 ) on Thursday June 09, 2005 @09:18PM (#12776061) Journal
        And to give a brief synopsis of average Joe Sixpack user:
        Dual boot? Partitions? WTF? Hey I know Lilo, he's the cute blue alien that breaks stuff in the cartoons. Oh you lost me again talking about that partition thing again....

        ~X~
        • Actually Lilo was the little girl, and Stitch was the alien.

          Yeah, I'm a dad.

        • Re:What's the problem with dual boot on same disk? (Score:4, Interesting)

          by manly_15 ( 447559 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @01:02AM (#12777393)
          In my experience (ISP Tech Support), it's even worse then that:

          "What version of Windows are you running?" (since no users have any idea what an operating system is): "I don't know, the newest one?", or "Outlook Express", or "Office 97".

          "Well, you know when you turn on your computer? There is a big blue or black screen which says what version of Windows you have. What does that say?": "Oh, I never pay any attention to that."

          So if users don't even see the BIG FLAMING WINDOWS VERSION NUMBER during boot up, the odds of them picking up a book like this and getting it /off the shelf/ is near zero.

          Too bad. I /do/ know that lots of users would like to save $50 off of the purchase of a new computer, esp. with Thunderbird and FF being cross platform so the setup is virtually the same. But consumers will never demand anything better because all they know is that their big black box plugs into their small TV and shows them pretty pictures from the internet.

    • Re:True. (Score:4, Informative)

      by mikael ( 484 ) on Thursday June 09, 2005 @06:49PM (#12774818)
      Which Linux distribution did you use?

      To install Fedora Core 3 onto my PC, I do the following:

      1. Install Windows XP
      2. Remove windows swap space (uses space at very end of partition)
      3. Defragment drive
      4. Run Knoppix CD and use qtparted to resize NTFS partition
      5. Reboot PC with Windows XP - NTFS realizes it has been lobotimized and validates partition
      6. Reinstall Windows swap space (768 MB)
      6. Install Linux using whatever version you want.
      7. Reboot PC

      Finished - one dual boot PC ready for use.

      • Interesting. I have found a slightly different system which appears to work well with most distros (I use Mandriva, FC3, Debian, and SuSE [hey, I test apps on Linux for a living]):
        1. Boot Linux install CD.
        2. Jump to partitioner section (I use the term option, but the GUI partitioner works well too)
        3. Set up partitions: /dev/(h|s)da1 is usually /boot and /dev/(h|s)da2 is NTFS for Win. The remaining partitions depend on the config, of course.
        4. Remove Linux install CD and shut down.
        5. Install WinXP Pro on NTFS parti
      • Actually the least painful way to do it, IF you are installing Windows from scratch, is to create your desired final partition table with fdisk before you install anything. So it would be:

        1. Boot up Knoppix, run fdisk
        2. Install Windows
        3. Install Linux
        4. Done

        That way you don't have to rely on Windows repairing itself after the fact, which isn't always reliable.
    • Hmm. Took me about 30 minutes to have a dual boot winxp box. What is risky about installing Linux onto a seperate partition on the same hdd as windows? Do the files residing near each other somehow "break" things?

      What "various obvious reasons" do you need to use Linux if you primarily use winxp?

      You probably just screwed up your boot loader, common with installing linux after installing windows. Super easy to fix. What that would have to do with service packs is beyond me. Probably thats just what the "rep
    • I started my Linux experience by installing a dual-boot Windows XP system with Mandrake Linux.

      The experience went exactly like this:
      1) Boot from Mandrake CD
      2) Begin installation
      3) Get to the partitioning section
      4) Mandrake installer detects "you have Microsoft Windows"
      5) Mandrake asks if I want to "use entire disk", "install Mandrake Linux to unused space on the Windows partition", or "custom disk partitioning"
      6) I choose "install to unused space on Windows partition"
      7) Mandrake asks me what size I want th
      • I have to agree with jayloden, the Mandrake/Mandriva installer makes dual-booting and resizing the windows partition a snap even for newbies. If you have a windows OS already installed, before the installation simply run scandisk then thoroughly defragment.

        My first linux system was Debian 'Woody' a few years ago. Compared to that, the Mandrake/Mandriva installer was a whole new world. A few basic questions about the install and then just wait 20-30 minutes and change CDs when prompted while everything inst
    • My solution is called KVM.. I don't have any trouble finding older computers very inexpensively that run Linux just fine. I'm running SuSE 9.2 on a PIII-550 with 256 Megs of Ram and it works great. When I want to use the XP box to run Quickbooks, I just tap-tap on the num-lock and there's my XP window.

      Actually, I go a bit further than that as I've got a 4 port KVM switch so I also have a similar box with Ubuntu 5.04 and a Celeron 900 with Xandros. All of these computers were given to me after a customer u
  • Tempting, but I am waiting for SymphonyOS to develop more before I spend more Linux time.
    • PS does not mean I do not like Linux. I just think SymphonyOS is just the thing to get me fascinated with computers again, after the dissappointment of having Amiga die the grisly death of thousand days. Or something like that anyway.
    • Just so you're aware, you can already download [symphonyos.com] the Alpha version. If you're really interested in the OS, then trying it out and giving constructive feedback may be helpful to the project. :-)
      • Thank you, but I already have the LiveCD in front of me, tried it on a nasty old Compaq Deskpro EN P-III. Very impressive hardware detection. I am a UI specialist by education so it was rather exciting to see someone pushing something even remotely radical than another nasty Xerox clone UI...

  • Hell, this is not new (Score:3, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward on Thursday June 09, 2005 @06:04PM (#12774407)
    I have been giving KNOPPIX cds to my friends for a year now. Best idea going, boot to the CD and start working

  • If you're this much of a newbie (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward
    You make find even changing your BIOS settings to make your CD drive bootable is impossible.

  • I'm impressed (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Rosco P. Coltrane ( 209368 ) on Thursday June 09, 2005 @06:06PM (#12774423)
    368 pages, including 2 to explain how to pop a CD in the drive, reboot and not be worried about formatting the existing hard-drive, and 366 pages describing software that, by now, are all graphical and almost as easy and intuitive to use as their Windows counterpart.

    Come on... That guy David Brickner just wanted to write his very own Linux book and cash in on it.

    • Re:I'm impressed (Score:2, Insightful)

      by skalogre ( 840256 )
      I think that is too harsh. Trust me, there need to be MANY MANY MORE simple, straightforward books demystifying Linux. Especially for novice PC users that can hardly use their PCs. And there needs to be a similar effort with Mac users, LiveCDs and books beckoning them away from the trappings of Steve " I MUST OWN THE WORLD" Jobs.

      • More books needed? (Score:2, Insightful)

        by apa666 ( 839909 )
        I think not. If Linux itself was simpler, more straightforward and demystified, now that would be something.
        At present Linux' only major advantage over Windows on the desktop for Joe User is the price. And everyone has already paid for Windows.
    • 366 pages describing software that, by now, are all graphical and almost as easy and intuitive to use as their Windows counterpart
      My God, if only people had to study a couple hundred pages of informative text before being allowed in front of a keyboard...

    • Re:I'm impressed (Score:2, Interesting)

      by Zutfen ( 841314 )
      Well, can you blame him?

      I only wish I had thought of it.

      1) Write a step by step guide to something anyone can do.
      2) Slap a LiveCD version of Linux on the back page
      3) ???? (okay, only added for effect, I admit)
      4) Profit!!

      It could get Linux into the hands of some total neophytes that might not care if it's "Not Windows!!11!one!!" and just be pleased as pie to be operating a computer at all!

      More power to him, IMO. (and I think the choice of distro is great for newbies, Mandrake Move is great for

    • software that, by now, are all graphical and almost as easy and intuitive to use as their Windows counterpart.

      I don't mean any disrespect, but I think you're giving too much credit to Windows software with this comment. Being graphical and sometimes consistent does not by itself make something "easy and intuitive to use", even though a lot of people seem to equate those qualities with being visually appealing. I'm not trying to imply that any unix-derived software does any better, but I don't thin

    • Come on... That guy David Brickner just wanted to write his very own Linux book and cash in on it.

      So? The market will sort it out.

      If he's right he makes lots of money. If you're right he'll have wasted his time and O'Reilly won't publish these kinds of books in the future.

  • LiveCD Damage (Score:2, Interesting)

    by doswarrior ( 889064 )
    I recommended LiveCD distro Ubuntu to a client one time because they wanted to try linux from a safe distance. It ended up throwing a huge 2 gig swap file onto his hard drive and destroying all traces of Win98. I had to undergo the painful task of re-installing Windows 98 on a 100mhz or so laptop (he won't upgrade for anything). Never found out the reason it did that.

  • Does similar exist for learing windows? (Score:1, Interesting)

    by Anonymous Coward
    I find myself now employed in a windows using company; and honestly, it sucks trying to get up to speed on this thing. Since starting 2 of our servers have been hacked and used for god-knows what; and to the best of anyone's abilities inside the company the best thing we could do about it is "install the latest service packs". There are tons of novice works out there; but are there any that are written with an experienced Mac/Solaris guy in mind?
  • Brickner identifies which distros are capable of resizing an NTFS-formatted partition; this determines whether or not a user can install that distro on a hard drive already containing Windows, and thus have a dual-boot system.

    When I installed Fedora (core 2) on a Windows laptop last year, I had to use Partition Magic to do the repartitioning. Could somebody comment about which Linux distros now do this for you? I'm genuinely curious (and don't want to shell out $ just to do a one-time system prep for ins

    • SuSE linux has been doing this for a long time now. Its dumbed down to the point where you can simple choose one of 6 sections of what type of linux install you want (server, workstation, developer, etc) and choose what size partition you want to install (again some selection type from radio buttons).

      This was a few years ago from my last expierence, but its simple. Its also #1 in Europe, and now owned by Novel.
      • Hmmm, and to think I gave up SuSe a few years ago (around version 7.3). Maybe it's time to look at it again.
        • The last SuSE that I tried was 8.2 Pro (it is quite a few years old now) and that one didn't do the resize for me. However, I was able to boot the CD into a recovery console and use the command line tools to do the resize.... but it wasn't easy. I know I had to boot into Windows XP first, remove the swap file and defrag since the "resize" appears to just make the partition smaller without too much regard to the actual file system!

          I believe things are a bit easier now, but I'd be interested in hearing conf
      • Mandrake (now Mandriva) does that since a long time ago, and Mandrake Move (which is discussed here) does it too, through an option that comes like "let me shrink your Windows and install Linux in the free space"
    • QTparted runs as a frontend for parted and ntfsresize seamlessly, or at least the version on Knoppix does.
    • Considering the number of Linux 'gurus' out here, I too am interested in this ...
      All I want to do, is to pop a live CD (Ubuntu live, or Knoppix) and partition the HDD, just like Partition Magic. It should be RELIABLE and easy to work with.
      Any suggestions are welcome and appreciated.
      • I havent used partition magic in years, its still around?

        Any way qtparted is graphical, easy to use, and I do believe comes with Knoppix and Mepis and Xandros to name 3 live CD's. I have used it many times to partition windows computers (with or without linux on them).

        Does partition magic cost $? Yet another good reason for free software: a repeatable simeple tool to build once and use over and over.
    • >Could somebody comment about which Linux distros
      >now do this for you?

      Ubuntu does it, as does Debian Sarge. There are quite a few others. What you're looking for is 'ntfsresize', and if you can run that first (say from a rescue disk), you can install any distro you'd like.

      One thing I'd like to do, that I haven't figured out how to do yet, is to take an existing dual-boot (XP/Debian) system, resize the NTFS partition, and also resize the ext3 partition by the corresponding amount.
      • That's pretty much impossible since it's impossible to move the start of a filesystem (at least an ext3 one, if the NTFS partition is at the end of the disk it might work). If the "gap" is big enough that you can shrink the NTFS partition, make a new ext3 partition in the gap, move everything from the existing ext3 partition to the new one, delete the old ext3 partition and expand the new one to the end of the disk you can do that, or you could try some sort of shuffling approach.
    • I've just done this to my new laptop now that school is out. Debian 3.1 includes a fairly good partition editor that allowed me to shrink an NTFS partition and then install GRUB to boot both Windows XP and Debian. Ubuntu's latest release also includes this feature. XP will run CHKDSK on it's next load, and then be fine. It's not as graphical as Partition Magic, but it works just as well.
  • In case anyone is wondering what the hell the department tag is talking about:

    MGBs, Tanks, and Batmobiles [spack.org]

  • I sent several of the latest live CDs to a friend so he could test drive Linux. All of them gave him kernel panic errors. After an updated Bios, stil the errors. Many cheat codes later, we were no closer.

    He then installed Mandriva LE DVD just fine, and has been running Linux for weeks now on his old laptop.

    My point is that Live CDs can often give Grandma the wrong impression, including that Linux is buggy and slow among other things.

    Sometimes buggy, time consuming and unessarily difficult, yes. Slow? No.

  • LiveCD as Rescue Disks (Score:2, Insightful)

    by xafan ( 836020 )
    I use LiveCDs quite a bit but almost strictly for repair or support of an existing system. I will often find myself needing to boot up a LiveCD in order to bring peace back to the troubled partition.

    On another note I specifically find the lightweight LiveCD Slax [linux-live.org] to be one of the best. A really nice feature it has is if you have at least 256MB of RAM you're able to load the entire CD into the RAM Disk and effectively run it without a CD.

  • Who is this aimed at? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Osrin ( 599427 ) * on Thursday June 09, 2005 @06:31PM (#12774638) Homepage
    I can't think that Joe and Pam User would want to experiment with an OS on their PC at home.

    The apple model seems to make a lot more sense, allowing Joe and Pam to play with the Mac in a store, where they can test out their apps, see the mac working with their printer - and all of the other day to day activities that they do at home.

    Test driving an OS with Open Office and browser is a good start... but it does not come close to helping Joe and Pam understand exactly what the OS will do for them in their everyday lives.

    We need Linux Test Drive centers, complete with in room experts who can help users understand how the OS works and how to get the best of it.

    • I can't think that Joe and Pam User would want to experiment with an OS on their PC at home.

      Aside: while it is admirable you go for being sensitive and politically correct here to include women (and at the risk of my karma for saying so), just saying Joe [google.com] is sufficient (Just look at the first returned result).

  • Another way to test drive (Score:5, Informative)

    by Rudolf ( 43885 ) on Thursday June 09, 2005 @06:52PM (#12774861)
    HP has a set-up where you can "test drive" different OSes and hardware.

    http://www.testdrive.hp.com/ [hp.com]

    Included are Linux, BSD, VMS, and HP-UX, Itanium, PA-RISC, Alpha, and x86.
    • I tried this - the machines are crawling with RC5 crackers and you can't test any application that needs to use the network.

      Too bad, I was going to pilot a web app on one for a customer, and they would have bought the HP if it worked out appropriately.

  • But... (Score:2, Interesting)

    by Mechcozmo ( 871146 )
    I've played with a LiveCD before too, and thought it was great. But when I wanted to install to an empty FAT32 partition, I had major issues with every single distro. Some were confusing to install, some KPed on boot, some just didn't start, etc. The LiveCDs were neat, but I couldn't do anything useful with them simply because they were CDs. I'd love to get Linux going but it just isn't as user-friendly as Windows is or OS X is.
    Well, at least the Windows installation procedure. That is usually pretty

    • Re:But... (Score:3, Insightful)

      by Mad Merlin ( 837387 )
      You might want to consider that you can't use a FAT(32) partition for a root filesystem under Linux, it doesn't support file permissions. You can mount FAT(32) partitions no problem for sharing data or whatever, but don't try and use one for the root partition, if the installer even lets you, I suspect you'll get many strange errors. Bottom line being to use something like ext3 for /, then mount your FAT32 partition under /mnt/share or something similar.
    • Then you have never tried Ubunto or Mepis, (particularly Mepis). So very easy.

      I have Linux and windows on this computer. The windows install and configuration is BY FAR more work then Linux. I have been putting of finishing the Windows install for a month now because I dread it so much. Its just what you are used to.

      Linux, put in live cd (in this case the simplest of them all mepis) and the system boots into the OS. Click the install me button. Check to use unused space for linux in my case (or use the gr
    • Hmm. Have you tried a recent Mandrake/Mandriva install disk? They partition fairly sensibly if you say "do it automatically", and would probably be smart enough to detect and erase an empty partition and set up a linux partition layout there.

  • Live CDs? (Score:2, Funny)

    by XpirateX ( 691224 )
    What's this about live Linux CDs? I've never heard of something like that. That sounds amazing!

    - Me, 1999
  • I use Gentoo Linux. Recently I crashed my system, the result of being on the bleeding edge of technology. The Live CD is my only hope of rescuing the system, so that I don't have to start from scratch and re-format the Linux partitions. Then I would loose everything and it would take another mounth to build the mountain from the molehill.

    May Long-Live-Live-CD's!!! Rob
  • I'm still waiting for someone to package PC virtualization software preconfigured to boot a linux distro. Then there is _really_ no way your PC can be harmed.

    Drew Vogel

  • You don't even need to reboot (Score:3, Informative)

    by Quiberon ( 633716 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @03:21AM (#12777877) Journal
    With one of these http://search.bittorrent.com/search.jsp?query=qemu &Submit2=Search [bittorrent.com] you don't even need to reboot. There's a pile of CDs and DVDs that run Linux under Windows.

    Toys, of course, but a good way to learn.

    Or you could google for 'winknoppix' . Plenty served !

  • coLinux (Score:4, Informative)

    by PhotoGuy ( 189467 ) on Friday June 10, 2005 @05:25AM (#12778275) Homepage
    While I heartily support livecd's for both introducing new users, and for diagnostic/rescue missions, I think coming up with a slick Knoppix-like distribution which uses coLinux, would go a long way.

    I've started using coLinux [colinux.org] for my development environment, running a full Fedora install under Windows, surprisingly efficiently (blows the doors off of VMWare). A CD that you could stick in, run a program which starts coLinux and a Knoppix distribution, would really let people get the flavour of Linux, without even rebooting.

  • A while back, I gave away a bunch of Knoppix CDs to my buddies at the local sports club. At first, they all wanted one, but later it turned out that none of them had taken the trouble to start one up. Apparently, the idea of actually running Linux on their PC just doesn't inspire the imagination. Apparently, the problem for them seems to consist of three things, not necessarily in the following order:

    1.) Linux is usually not a platform on which they can play their favorite games.

    2.) It's easy for them
  • I've used (formerly Mandrake) Move [mandriva.com], Knoppix [knoppix.net], SLAX [linux-live.org], and Mepis [mepis.org]. Most people I know who have heard of the live CDs have heard of all of those, and a bunch more.

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