| Vintage Games | |
| author | Bill Loguidice and Matt Barton |
| pages | 408 |
| publisher | Focal Press |
| rating | 8 |
| reviewer | Michael Fiegel |
| ISBN | 978-0-240-81146-8 |
| summary | A look at the most influential games of the past four decades |
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2010 Geeknet, Inc.
No Monkey Island?! (Score:5, Funny)
Mentioned as "Greatest Adventure Games" (Score:4, Informative)
I have a minor qualm with the title, I think it should be "Vintage Digital Games" as when I saw the title I thought "well, this should be difficult." But the cover sure illustrates they mean video games.
Parent
Re:Mentioned as "Greatest Adventure Games" (Score:5, Insightful)
Haven't read the book yet (just requested from library - too cheap for Amazon), but it's interesting that some of the iconic arcade classics missed out. Sure, we have Space Invaders, but what about Tron, Asteroids, Centipede, Dig-Dug, Paperboy? I donated a heckuva lotta quarters to my local Chuck E. Cheese as a kid just for the privilege. As far as the Atari games go, I might toss in Break-through and Warlock too just for helping open the door to more innovative controller ideas (like Centipede did for the stand-up arcade boxes). Somebody should be tossed to a lurking Grue.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Notice that all the games listed are best known for their home console or computer versions. All the games you mention are arcade games; they did get ported to other platforms, but lost something in the process.
Still, you have a point. A book that claims to be about the most influential electronic games but completely ignores the arcade is kind of missing the boat.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
There was a lot of overlap - Even as popularity went. I played Super Mario Brothers (total Pitfall Harry ripoff!) mainly at home, but years after dumping a bunch of quarters into the arcade box. I only ever played Asteroids on my Atari, but I'm aware that it had an arcade presence.
Tron and Centipede, however, were pretty strictly arcade boxes for me. Break-through and Warlock I'm not sure I saw anywhere except for Atari.
Re: (Score:2)
arcade Asteroids was much better than the atari version. something cool about the ghostly vector graphics
Re: (Score:2)
Actually, I think Defender and Robotron:2084 are better known as arcade games, even if they were eventually ported to consoles and/or personal computers. Granted, those are listed in the on-line "Bonus Chapters" section, but even so, it makes gnick's point stronger.
I suppose one could argue that Asteroids wasn't really much of an innovation after Spacewar! (covered) and its years-ahead-of-its-time arcade version Space Wars [wikipedia.org], but then that same argument could be used to eliminate Diablo in favor of Rogue, ye
Re:Mentioned as "Greatest Adventure Games" (Score:5, Interesting)
Not only that, but they seem to have missed the boat on the older computer games as well. I can think of quite a few that should probably be on the list.
Questron - An interesting mixture of interface styles, embedded mini games, and probably the best finale in any game for years to come.
Karateka - A very interesting game with great music and graphics. Between this and the arcade game Kung Fu, we get the Street Fighter games, etc.
Project Space Station - A very good strategy/simulation/management game which had an easy to learn and use interface. Many strategy games of this era were unattractive due to the interface, but this program seems to have set the bar here.
Leaderboard Golf - A lot of my friends were really addicted to this game. It had 3d graphics and a decent physics engine. All of the extra courses and sequels to this game is a testament to it's innovativeness and popularity.
Hacker - A game before it's time. An exciting game where you break into a remote computer and send a robot on an involved spy mission. I'm not really sure how popular this game was, but I thought it was something that hadn't been tried before done well.
Wild Wild West (I'm not too sure about the name) - I think this is one of the first games with dialog and characters, which idea made it's way into future adventure games like Monkey Island. Depending on how you interact with the "npc", you would either satisfy it, scare it, or be drawn into a gunfight.
Elite! - I'm not going to bother to describe this, as I know most of y'all know what this is, and are probably wondering why it's not listed.
Little Computer People - It's possible that there would be no Sims games today if this nice program was never made.
Superbowl Sunday - I think that this was one of the games that influenced the sports team management games that have been seen since. (A lot of the Avalon Hill games and some of the SSI games suffered from difficult interfaces, which is something that I noted about with PSS.)
This is just a few from the top of my head, and I'm only thinking about c64 now, there are quite a few others games on other platforms that dramatically influenced future games.
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I think any collection not mentioning 1987's amazing 'Dungeon Master' from FTL is incomplete. That game was well ahead of it's time. It was terrific on the Atari ST and Apple II GS, but it positively SHONE on the Amiga.
As if the gameplay weren't enough to get it into a list of this nature, the user interface itself should have.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
In defense of the author the games you listed with the exception of Paper Boy were not "game changing", popular yes, but game changing? Not so much.
Space Invaders didn't have any game changing aspect to it. Plently of ASCII console games existed prior to SI that had stuff like that. Compare missle command, Arkanoid, Space Invaders, Robotron, and at the most base level, still have a fundamental and common 2D structure. The top down shooting concept was not much different then any other 2D game. Centipede was
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Space invaders changed the arcade forever.
It was a huge game changer. Ask any pinball historian.
It also brought a more person feel to the game. With pinball there was always a slight randomness to it. In Space Invaders, if you missed, it was all you.
Yeah, Space invaders was a game changer. You just ahve to remember what the game was like then.
We are talking about 1978. Space invaders laid the path for Pac-Man.
Prior to Space Invaders, video games were strictly a novelty. in the corner of the arcade. Space In
Re: (Score:2)
I'm shaking, I'm shaking.
Bill Budge's Pinball Construction Set (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Pinball Construction Set is there. M.U.L.E. is not.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
From that set of games, I'm surprised you left out Arcon. It also didn't change the industry as it didn't spawn its own genre, but man, it was cool. Like chess, but you've gotta battle it out for every space? How cool is that?!
Looks good (Score:2, Funny)
This is basically a list of my favorite games of all time, with the notable exception of John Madden Football. Seriously, what the heck? How is it they make 1 every year, and its a top seller? I've never understood this phenomenon, especially because they only record him saying about 5 things.
Now to be completely fair, in real life he only uses about 5 phrases, but they could have mixed it up a little.
But overall, it looks like a good read. I think I'll try to hunt down a copy.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Let's see if I can explain the phenoninom using an analogy you'll relate to. Let's say you're a really big fan of Bangbros pornography. All day all night, you watch those lovable fellows have sex with women who apparently have no qualms about getting in a stranger's van with a bunch of sweaty men.
Now you really like the videos you have, but at some point you think to yourself "wow, it'd sure be great to watch different women get into this stranger's van filled with sweaty men!"
Why Madden? (Score:4, Informative)
I admit I have not played the Madden line of games since the 90's, but I can tell you why we preferred Madden to anything else starting in 92. Madden football focused on realism in the game, above how hard you can hit (NFL Blitz) or how well you can guess the other player's play (Tecmo SuperBowl). Madden in 93-94 even allowed various play formations, and tried to mimic the sport as accurately as possible. As technology improved, the game continued with trying to portray football as real as possible. That is what drew myself and my friends into it years ago. Although many football games have tried since (the 2K series, Joe Montana football, etc.), they were already behind the curve. I think EA made their sports niche with just that...realism.
Parent
Missing: Defender?! Gauntlet?! (Score:2, Interesting)
Come on: those two games *defined* an entire culture of horizontal scrolling shoot-em-ups and God's-eye view dungeon rapid-fire raiding. For *fuck's sake* how many quarters did I blow on those two games in teh 80's? Prolly close to eight-thousand dollars worth....and the friggin' Baiters won every time.... '-(
And my green elf; he needs food...badly.
=Smidge=
No Sword of Fargoal? (Score:2, Informative)
Re: (Score:2)
It's quite not the same. I can actually finish the new one...
Re: (Score:2)
agreed. you can cheat the death feature with the save game if you do it right.
Well the games at the beginning .. (Score:2, Informative)
Well the computer games I played at the beginning were: .. unique, odd and incentiveless to start something.
Empire, which started the Civilization path
Sentinel, which started nothing I know of
Populous, which started the concept of "god perspective games" for me
There were other games but these were too
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Populous, which started the concept of "god perspective games" for me
You never played Life [wikipedia.org] then?
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Myst? (Score:2)
Myst? Certainly one of the defining moments of its' short-lived genre, but I think I would have picked The Seventh Guest instead for that slot.
Grand Theft Auto? Vintage? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yep, Vintage (Score:2, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Small difference, relatively, but GTA III is actually almost 8 years old and not 6 (it was released October 2001).
Vintage is an ambiguous term, so he gets to play loosely with it. Regardless of whether you thought the game was fun or not, it WAS the first notably high selling game that did an open world sandbox well. There are countless games today that mimic the design (the new Red Faction game released yesterday, for one example).
Like it or not, GTA III was very influential for its design and the controve
As I read this... (Score:2, Funny)
Quickly Back on The Shelf... (Score:3, Insightful)
I picked this up at the book store, noticed nothing about Nethack, and decided it was one of those books in which the author just wanted to talk about old games he liked, history be damned. That's not a bad thing, but that's also not what the title would lead one to think.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Well, he covers Rogue in the online chapters, and much as I love Nethack myself, I would quickly agree that Rogue was the real trendsetter and innovator here.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
In the review it says it talks about Rogue, progenitor of Nethack and all "Rogue-likes" (der). So who's just talking about their favorite games, history be damned? Okay, those were online 'bonus' chapters. Anyway.
There's only so much room in a book about an area of entertainment to mention/discuss all instances of that form of entertainment. And frankly the list presented here is one of the most varied and comprehensive I've seen in anything of this sort. Not everything can make it in, and focusing on
Where's Syndicate? (Score:2)
I'm sure there'll be a lot more that folks can think of out here in Slashdot land.....
Re: (Score:2)
Dune II, not C&C (Score:3, Insightful)
I find it interesting that Dune II was chosen over C&C. Dune II is definitely the origin of a lot of concepts in RTS, but I always found C&C (also by Westwood Studios) to be the more significant title of the genre (and I did own/play both on DOS). Recently I got the original C&C (now freeware) running in wine, and it still feels close to a modern RTS (I had just beaten C&C3). A couple years ago I tried playing Dune II again, and didn't get that feeling.
Overall that seems like a good list of vintage games. I would have like to have seen a representative from a couple dead genres like Mechwarrior (mech games) and something like Night Trap for FMV's games. Also, I do hope they mention Sonic in the Mario section.
I realize they had limited space. (Score:2, Insightful)
I saw no mention of M.U.L.E. [wikipedia.org] in there anywhere. It is a vintage game and in my opinion introduced some interesting game mechanics, one of them being the simulated economy.
Some (probably all) genres need more history. (Score:4, Interesting)
For example, CRPGs don't all trace back to Ultima. Within that same age of gestation there were also such luminaries as Wizardry, Bard's Tale, Might & Magic, Phantasie, Questron, and others. In fact, I always kind of disliked the single-avatar system of Ultima/Questron and preferred the controlling a party of players ala Bard's Tale/Wizardry/Phantasie. Also, Questron was one of the first games that I came across that used mini-games for certain tests, which was quite novel.
I agree that the arcade was the birthplace of a lot of great titles and ideas, but the Apple ][, C=64, Amiga 500, and Atari ST all were fantastic petri dishes for the wild growth and speciation of all the games we know and love. I think some of the titles mentioned in the book can be traced back to much more fundamental roots and that in many cases those roots are plural, in the form of several good games that were synthesized into a transformative game title that broke through to the mass market.
I also agree that some of these games really aren't "vintage." If you can play it without digging out old equipment of finding an emulator, then it doesn't really qualify.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Wizardry, Bard's Tale, Might and Magic derived from Akalabeth's dungeons (Akalabeth was the prequel to Ultima and released in 1979). Questron and Phantasie mostly derived from Ultima, though yes, that was the first I remember mini-games in.
A couple of influential games I think are missing are Choplifter and Pitfall! Both were influential in gameplay and Choplifter was the first game to start as a computer game and become a video game (albeit rewritten and MUCH harder) and influenced some other games like
Console Only (Score:5, Insightful)
It would appear that the title would be better read "Vintage Console Games"
VGA Planets and L.O.R.D (Legend of the Red Dragon) where some of the earliest Time Share MMO type games only now being ressurected in the form of Mob Wars\Mafia Wars on places like Facebook.
Oddly one of the first "3D" space flight games "Star Voyager" for the NES is missing and would have even settled for Descent or Wing Commander for the first space combat games to really change the nature of flight games. Especially with the mention of Ultima but laps the Wing Commander series...
The Gold Box series of D&D games is also absent.
But most of all, oddly enough, where are the edutainment games from Math Munchers, Carmen Sandiego, and Oregon Trail? The edutainment section is absent...
Just some thoughts for the second release.
Also Battle Chess made Chess accessable to millions of players over the years and took Chess from stuffy to damn near cool as the Fonz for its time...
Lets not forget the niche area of historical sims that kept KOEI staff employed with Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Nobunga's Ambition.
Another lacking one is Populous now I think of it...
Dungeon Keeper, Tecmo's Deception...
Shin Mega whateverthehell it is called (Devil Summoner series) broke some new ground...
And let us not forget several games (regardless of theme) that contributed:
Password based continues
Battery Backup saves
light zappers and other specialized periphrials
First game with multi-layered backgrounds
Paper Mario being one of the first games to switch the whole perspective concept
What no gauntlet on of the first 4 player games I can think of?
Killer Instinct for first major use of pre-rendered 3D environments?
Mortal Kombat for the first grusome death option (fatalities) and as far as I can tell one of the first to have an option (hidden or not) to FINISH an opponent?
Rush series of arcade games I think were the first to use a force feedback steering wheel.. In fact I think the arm wrestling game was the first to use any form of force feedback....
If we are looking to measure games that 'change the nature of gaming' they have missed quite a few story telling options and some very odd exclusions.
Case in point, Bowling. One of the first games to use the over-grown track ball that golden tee owes it's sorry ass too...
Ikari warriors to use a rotating joystick?
I don't even know which game was the first to use analog controls for a joystick rather then digital...
How about the first arcade game that allowed players to save their game data on a card?
Such a minor sample of game changers...
Even from a content standpoint:
First to swear?
First to have someone die?
FIrst to have someone have children in the game?
Breaking the old literary norms of games change a lot and opened up a historical chance that game developers took to expand their story telling.
Lots of missed opportunities... I wait till a second revision...
Marathon (Score:2)
I keenly remember jealously watching my Mac fanatic roommate playing Marathon while I was playing Doom on my PC. Doom deserves to be on the list for its wide impact, but Marathon, I think, has had a far bigger impact on today's game world. It went much further in combining the puzzle and FPS aspects of gameplay, and the legacy, continued in the Halo series, is tremendous.
Madden-ing (Score:3, Informative)
He seems to have missed the very heart of Madden, which was Bethesda Soft's Gridiron. Most people are unaware that the original engine for Madden was bought and it's extremely hard to find the original Gridiron on any abandon ware sites because of this. The heart of Gridiron was it's inertial engine. Players were represented as dots and accelerated at a speed based on of their Speed stat (one of two stats, the other being Strength). You could create you own plays with a way-point system and a flexible set of commands like run-block-right or call from the pre-set plays in the game. The entire game was revolutionary, but is sadly lost to the legacy of it's licensing.
Changed? Into what? (Score:3, Interesting)
Just for the record... If a game is not immensely popular, not innovative, and not novel, how can it "change videogames forever"?
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
(o o)
,----ooO--(_)-------.
| Please |
| don't feed the |
| TROLL's ! |
'--------------Ooo--'
|__|__|
|| ||
ooO Ooo
Re:Unclear Focus! (Score:5, Funny)
(o o)
,----ooO--(_)-------.
| don't feed the |
| TROLL's... |
| ...WHAT? |
'--------------Ooo--'
|__|__|
|| ||
ooO Ooo
Parent
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
No Need to save, or worry about if I am playing enough for to keep my stats fresh. Just play the game, kill some time, and have some fun.
I miss gaming like that. I know it still exists, but it seems few and few between titles.
Re: (Score:2)
There have been discussions, newspieces, even books written on the subject of casual gaming.
You might try one of the flash game sites out there... personally, I prefer Kongregate for my casual gaming fix, since it adds in the devilish achievements angle to keep me interested in some of the games.
Just to note, though... a lot of casual games seem to have been poorly playtested during development, and have issues with balance, difficulty, etc..
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Ha ha!! There were so many of those, it's impossible to list them all.
The best, and most popular were the Infocom games, where failure to light a torch, lantern, match, etc. would put you in danger of being eaten by a grue (a theme that spanned the whole lineup, regardless of genre).
You can find the Infocom games here:
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3398113/Infocom_Universe_Bootleg [thepiratebay.org]
Pirated, but it's very hard to get the actual copies of the games these days, and the items that came packaged with the game wer
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
That is 'just' a graphical redo of a previous game.
Ah, yes, the days of meticulously programming "a/s/l?" on punchcards.