What ethical problems? Decompiling is perfectly moral and ethical. Whether it is illegal is a seperate and, for me, almost irelevant issue. If I legally own a copyrighted work I am allowed to read it, period and end of story. Corporate licences excepted, software is SOLD, not licensed despite the scary words on the box and the dread click through EULA.
Hell, I learned assembly by writing a disassembler (in BASIC) and reading the Microsoft BASIC roms, then l
What ethical problems? Decompiling is perfectly moral and ethical.... If I legally own a copyrighted work I am allowed to read it, period and end of story. Corporate licences excepted, software is SOLD, not licensed despite the scary words on the box and the dread click through EULA.
I disagree here. I am a strong believer that people should be able to trade goods/services for prices/conditions they mutually agree upon. If I write software and say I will sell it to you for $x on condition that you do Y
> I think it is morally repugnant of you to break our agreement and decompile.
While you are welcome to your delusions, but out here in the real world we have some things called laws. Specifically the Uniform Commercial Code and the Copyright laws.
You will note that I excepted commercial licenses, since those are actual signed contracts and are legally binding.
According to the Uniform Commercial Code if goods are exchanged in regular trade there can't be strings attached; i.e. if it looks like a sale
First you imply that the actual laws are irrelevant to your views on morality:
What ethical problems? Decompiling is perfectly moral and ethical. Whether it is illegal is a seperate and, for me, almost irelevant issue.
Then when someone argues on moral grounds:
If I write software and say I will sell it to you for $x on condition that you do Y (perhaps Y is not decompiling the source), and you agree to these terms, I think it is morally repugnant of you to break our agreement and decompile.
You go back to the law.
While you are welcome to your delusions, but out here in the real world we have some things called laws.
If you don't like the conditions of the offer, don't buy the product. But if you do buy the product, don't you think it is immoral to break the agreement you made with the seller (whether it is a signed commercial agreement or not)?
Ford can't forbid me from taking apart a Caddy and not only making, but SELLING plans;
So if you buy a copy of MS Office and figure out how to break the copy protection, you think it's OK to sell copies of the cracked version?
> First you imply that the actual laws are irrelevant to your views on > morality:
When a society is correctly operating, laws codify morals. In our current dystopia of the Law divorced from Truth and Justice that isn't always the case. It is the Right, nay it is the Duty, of every citizen in a free society to violate an unjust law as an act of civil disobiedience.
And yes, I have done so publicly, specifically by confessing to violating the DMCA by viewing DVDs on my laptop in a letter to President
All well and good, but when you "buy" Windows XP in a store, you aren't buying Windows XP, you're buying a LICENSE to use Windows XP in binary form. Huge difference.
I haven't looked at my Windows XP box in a couple years, and the shrinkwrap is long gone, but as a I recall, the stipulation that you are buying a license to use the software application in binary form and NOT the software application itself (in which case you'd be getting the source) is clearly stated on the box/wrapper. Before you purchase it
> All well and good, but when you "buy" Windows XP in a store, you aren't > buying Windows XP, you're buying a LICENSE to use Windows XP in binary > form. Huge difference.
Still hung up on that misconception. No, a license is only in effect if I sign a contract changing the sale into a limited license. They can print "By buying this hammer you agree you will ONLY drive our brand of nails and strike no other object with this tool." on the side, stock the shelves of Home Depot with them and get exact
You can own an idea, just not exclusively. But you can exclusively own the particular implementation of an idea.
YOU'RE confusing a sale of property with a license to use the implementation of an idea.
Your hammer example only works if I sell you a hammer, or a TV, or a car. Hammers, TVs, and cars aren't copyrighted. Software vendors aren't selling you their products...they're selling you a LICENSE to use their products. Fundamental difference.
> Software vendors aren't selling you their products...they're selling > you a LICENSE to use their products.
Nope. on the rare occasion I buy software, I BUY it. You do not need a license to use software anymore than you need one to read a book, or even to check one out of a public library.
> Then the GPL, the MPL, and every other open source license, is invalid. > That makes WhiteBox Linux illegal.
Again, you are quite mistaken. You may download as many copies of WhiteBox from whereever you p
Strange...you say one thing, but then you say another.
First, licenses don't mean anything, they're not binding, because you haven't signed anything.
But then you say the GPL provides a license, yet nobody has to sign anything to use GPL'd software, or copy it, or distribute it, as long as they meet its conditions. So if I don't have to sign anything, then the GPL isn't binding.
Which is it?
If the GPL can say that distributing a GPL'd work constitutes acceptance of the license, and the license is binding,
> If the GPL can say that distributing a GPL'd work constitutes acceptance of the license, and the license is binding, how can that be? There's no contract.
Er, because if you distribute it, you're distributing someone else's copyrighted works. *DISTRIBUTING*. Not copying/modifying/studying for your own private use, *DISTRIBUTING*. The only way you could do that is with the copyright holder's permission, which happens to be spelled out in the GPL. That's how copyright law works, and that's the whole
The other poster keeps repeating, over and over, that if there's "no signed contract" the agreement is not binding. That if he doesn't sign a contract with the software company, he can do whatever he wants. I disagree.
My point is that the GPL does not require such a signed contract, only an action on the part of the licensee, to be binding. Right?
If the GPL is binding without a signed contract, by virtue of an action taken by the licensee (in this case distribution), why is another license (such as the In
> But then you say the GPL provides a license, yet nobody has to sign > anything to use GPL'd software, or copy it, or distribute it, as long > as they meet its conditions. So if I don't have to sign anything, then > the GPL isn't binding.
Exactly correct. If you copy a GNU program and distribute it you do not have to accept the GPL. However when RMS and his squadron of elite attack lawyer ninjas descend upon you for violating their copyright, smiting thee with their rightous fury, only saying "I
The GPL doesn't say distributing a GPL'd work constitutes acceptance of the license. Rather, the GPL can grant you the right, which you wouldn't otherwise have had, to distribute the work, provided you comply with the provisions. So when you distribute a GPL'd work, you haven't implicitly agreed to the GPL - it's just that if you don't, you're infringing copyright law. (If you get sued, you can choose whether it's a copyright or a contract violation.)
A EULA is different because it isn't granting you dis
> My point is that the GPL does not require such a signed contract, only an action on the part of the licensee, to be binding. Right?
No, wrong. You don't have to accept the terms of the GPL to distribute the works, but in that case, you would be infringing the copyright of the author. Copyright is infringed when you distribute their work without their permission. That's what copyright is - a monopoly on *distribution*.
> If the GPL is binding without a signed contract, by virtue of an action taken
You have done a fantastic job of explaining exactly what the current situation is and why the "well my box says..." arguments are incorrect. Cheers to you! Anybody that has confusions about the issues should read your thread. I owe you one beer.
If you don't like the conditions of the offer, don't buy the product.
That is exactly what the Uniform Commercial Code is about, ensuring everyone knows and can agree in a meaningful way to the terms of the transaction. Without a signed contract specifying different terms though, the UCC says that a sale of goods transfers a clear title to those goods, meaning there can't be any conditions attached.
You're talking about specific laws here. The grandparent post was merely saying that violating an a
> The grandparent post was merely saying that violating an agreement is > immoral.
True enough but this whole matter revolves around whether an agreement exists. When people disagree on such matters, that is where the Law comes into the discussion and it is very clear on the point.
The original poster holds that as the creator and owner of a work he has absolute power to dictate the terms and conditions it can be USED under, and that by purchasing his work I MUST agree to those terms. I hold that he
He isn't saying that laws and morality are unrelated, only that the relationship ought to be associated with a clear, unidirectional causality, and therefore that moral decisions are not dictated by the law.
If it's a unidirectional causality, then a moral assessment should never depend on any particular laws. The original poster claimed that unapproved decompilation was immoral. Then jmorris42 came around and started citing specific laws to prove that he had the legal right to do so.
> What's worse is he assumed that hypothetical agreement wasn't in writing > and proceeded to draw further conclusions from that assumption
No, read up the thread, in the very first post I excluded the case of corporate site licensing and other such real signed contract sort of software licensing it should be clear I am discussing consumer EULAs.
I assert that since EULAs are wrong on both moral and legal grounds, either of which alone is cause for ignoring them. I claim that I have as much right to r
But if you do buy the product, don't you think it is immoral to break the agreement you made with the seller (whether it is a signed commercial agreement or not)?
I made no agreement with the seller. If the seller wants an agreement, he can give me the forms to sign and I will put my John Hancock on the line if I am willing to make that agreement. Just because I clicked past some text to get the program to install doesn't mean I agreed to it.
You would give the sellers all the power. You can't return the p
I made no agreement with the seller. If the seller wants an agreement, he can give me the forms to sign and I will put my John Hancock on the line if I am willing to make that agreement. Just because I clicked past some text to get the program to install doesn't mean I agreed to it.
There's some confusion here... I (and some other people) were saying that decompilation is immoral if the agreement you had doesn't allow it. You (and others) are arguing that a post-purchase EULA doesn't constitute a mut
I (and some other people) were saying that decompilation is immoral if the agreement you had doesn't allow it. You (and others) are arguing that a post-purchase EULA doesn't constitute a mutual agreement. I'm not exactly how those two issues got mixed up in this thread,
The person you replied to said:
You will note that I excepted commercial licenses, since those are actual signed contracts and are legally binding.
So signed contracts were excluded from this subbranch of the thread, at least.
But you're overcomplicating the matter. A signed contract can add ethical issues to anything.
True... What I *meant* to convey was that the intent of "anti-decompilation" clause might be to hide proprietary company secrets -- to protect an R&D investment. Maybe the seller doesn't really mind if you decompile to interoperate, but can't figure out a safe way to say that in the contract. In such a situation, there are ethical issues related to how much of the decompiled source code can you look at
Their idea of an offer you can't refuse is an offer... and you'd better
not refuse.
What ethical problems? (Score:5, Insightful)
What ethical problems? Decompiling is perfectly moral and ethical. Whether it is illegal is a seperate and, for me, almost irelevant issue. If I legally own a copyrighted work I am allowed to read it, period and end of story. Corporate licences excepted, software is SOLD, not licensed despite the scary words on the box and the dread click through EULA.
Hell, I learned assembly by writing a disassembler (in BASIC) and reading the Microsoft BASIC roms, then l
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:3, Insightful)
I disagree here. I am a strong believer that people should be able to trade goods/services for prices/conditions they mutually agree upon. If I write software and say I will sell it to you for $x on condition that you do Y
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:5, Interesting)
While you are welcome to your delusions, but out here in the real world we have some things called laws. Specifically the Uniform Commercial Code and the Copyright laws.
You will note that I excepted commercial licenses, since those are actual signed contracts and are legally binding.
According to the Uniform Commercial Code if goods are exchanged in regular trade there can't be strings attached; i.e. if it looks like a sale
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
First you imply that the actual laws are irrelevant to your views on morality:
Then when someone argues on moral grounds:
You go back to the law.
If you don't like the conditions of the offer, don't buy the product. But if you do buy the product, don't you think it is immoral to break the agreement you made with the seller (whether it is a signed commercial agreement or not)?
So if you buy a copy of MS Office and figure out how to break the copy protection, you think it's OK to sell copies of the cracked version?
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
> morality:
When a society is correctly operating, laws codify morals. In our current dystopia of the Law divorced from Truth and Justice that isn't always the case. It is the Right, nay it is the Duty, of every citizen in a free society to violate an unjust law as an act of civil disobiedience.
And yes, I have done so publicly, specifically by confessing to violating the DMCA by viewing DVDs on my laptop in a letter to President
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:1)
I haven't looked at my Windows XP box in a couple years, and the shrinkwrap is long gone, but as a I recall, the stipulation that you are buying a license to use the software application in binary form and NOT the software application itself (in which case you'd be getting the source) is clearly stated on the box/wrapper. Before you purchase it
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
> buying Windows XP, you're buying a LICENSE to use Windows XP in binary
> form. Huge difference.
Still hung up on that misconception. No, a license is only in effect if I sign a contract changing the sale into a limited license. They can print "By buying this hammer you agree you will ONLY drive our brand of nails and strike no other object with this tool." on the side, stock the shelves of Home Depot with them and get exact
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:1)
You can own an idea, just not exclusively. But you can exclusively own the particular implementation of an idea.
YOU'RE confusing a sale of property with a license to use the implementation of an idea.
Your hammer example only works if I sell you a hammer, or a TV, or a car. Hammers, TVs, and cars aren't copyrighted. Software vendors aren't selling you their products...they're selling you a LICENSE to use their products. Fundamental difference.
"No, a license is only in
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
> you a LICENSE to use their products.
Nope. on the rare occasion I buy software, I BUY it. You do not need a license to use software anymore than you need one to read a book, or even to check one out of a public library.
> Then the GPL, the MPL, and every other open source license, is invalid.
> That makes WhiteBox Linux illegal.
Again, you are quite mistaken. You may download as many copies of WhiteBox from whereever you p
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:1)
First, licenses don't mean anything, they're not binding, because you haven't signed anything.
But then you say the GPL provides a license, yet nobody has to sign anything to use GPL'd software, or copy it, or distribute it, as long as they meet its conditions. So if I don't have to sign anything, then the GPL isn't binding.
Which is it?
If the GPL can say that distributing a GPL'd work constitutes acceptance of the license, and the license is binding,
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
Er, because if you distribute it, you're distributing someone else's copyrighted works. *DISTRIBUTING*. Not copying/modifying/studying for your own private use, *DISTRIBUTING*. The only way you could do that is with the copyright holder's permission, which happens to be spelled out in the GPL. That's how copyright law works, and that's the whole
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:1)
My point is that the GPL does not require such a signed contract, only an action on the part of the licensee, to be binding. Right?
If the GPL is binding without a signed contract, by virtue of an action taken by the licensee (in this case distribution), why is another license (such as the In
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:3, Insightful)
> anything to use GPL'd software, or copy it, or distribute it, as long
> as they meet its conditions. So if I don't have to sign anything, then
> the GPL isn't binding.
Exactly correct. If you copy a GNU program and distribute it you do not have to accept the GPL. However when RMS and his squadron of elite attack lawyer ninjas descend upon you for violating their copyright, smiting thee with their rightous fury, only saying "I
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
A EULA is different because it isn't granting you dis
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
With the GPL, the "trigger," distributing the software, would be illegal if you don't agree to the GPL.
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
No, wrong. You don't have to accept the terms of the GPL to distribute the works, but in that case, you would be infringing the copyright of the author. Copyright is infringed when you distribute their work without their permission. That's what copyright is - a monopoly on *distribution*.
> If the GPL is binding without a signed contract, by virtue of an action taken
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:1)
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
You're talking about specific laws here. The grandparent post was merely saying that violating an a
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
> immoral.
True enough but this whole matter revolves around whether an agreement exists. When people disagree on such matters, that is where the Law comes into the discussion and it is very clear on the point.
The original poster holds that as the creator and owner of a work he has absolute power to dictate the terms and conditions it can be USED under, and that by purchasing his work I MUST agree to those terms. I hold that he
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
If it's a unidirectional causality, then a moral assessment should never depend on any particular laws. The original poster claimed that unapproved decompilation was immoral. Then jmorris42 came around and started citing specific laws to prove that he had the legal right to do so.
What's wors
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
> and proceeded to draw further conclusions from that assumption
No, read up the thread, in the very first post I excluded the case of corporate site licensing and other such real signed contract sort of software licensing it should be clear I am discussing consumer EULAs.
I assert that since EULAs are wrong on both moral and legal grounds, either of which alone is cause for ignoring them. I claim that I have as much right to r
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
I made no agreement with the seller. If the seller wants an agreement, he can give me the forms to sign and I will put my John Hancock on the line if I am willing to make that agreement. Just because I clicked past some text to get the program to install doesn't mean I agreed to it.
You would give the sellers all the power. You can't return the p
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
There's some confusion here... I (and some other people) were saying that decompilation is immoral if the agreement you had doesn't allow it. You (and others) are arguing that a post-purchase EULA doesn't constitute a mut
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
The person you replied to said:
You will note that I excepted commercial licenses, since those are actual signed contracts and are legally binding.
So signed contracts were excluded from this subbranch of the thread, at least.
jmorris42
Re:What ethical problems? (Score:2)
True... What I *meant* to convey was that the intent of "anti-decompilation" clause might be to hide proprietary company secrets -- to protect an R&D investment. Maybe the seller doesn't really mind if you decompile to interoperate, but can't figure out a safe way to say that in the contract. In such a situation, there are ethical issues related to how much of the decompiled source code can you look at